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View Poll Results: Is Quebec Independence a Legitimate Movement?
Yes 106 66.67%
No 53 33.33%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-20-2014, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Quebec is a part of a country known as Canada. What about the rights of Canadians in Quebec either as visitors or persons wanting to do business. Do they have no rights?
This is preposterous. You don't have transportable language rights where everyone will speak to you in English no matter where you go.

And of course, little consideration is usually by anglo-lebensraum types to the other side of the coin, which is: how do people who speak French fare in parts of Canada outside Quebec if they want to use their language?
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Old 12-20-2014, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yes, it is progress. He is dialoguing with us on our turf in our language as if he was one of us, because he is one of us.

The base idea is not to achieve groupthink where everyone thinks the same (the PQ is great and can do no wrong, God bless the OQLF...), it's to be able to have debates with everyone who lives here on the same terms. Not to have people like him and Richler living a parallel reality. Sugar Sammy may have views you and I do not like but he is in our reality, not outside of it.

BTW Sugan Sammy has always said he was in favour of the school provisions of Bill 101 because without them he says he would never have learned French and grown up almost like a stranger in his own city.
No it's not progress, at least certainly not for french quebecers...Yes Sugar Sammy is a 101 kid success and he admit it and I can thank him for that, but he's attitude is not warrant of positive contribution in quebec's pride and self esteem, isn't it what quebecers suffered the most in the last hundreds of years? Are you suggesting that this is what we need? He capitalize on existing pre-judgment towards french quebecers, somes of these like Jeff Fillion does exactly the same thing, at least Sugar Sammy is not living out of our taxes.

Humour that have the goal of breaking spereotypes, barrers, caricaturize our culture and make us think forward are very good for a society and I endorse that, but that's not what he is doing. he's goal is not to make us think differently, but to make us drop our will for a multiethnic independant nation in favor of multiculturalism (which abolish the predominance of a common ground culture btw) by making us believe that we are stupid, uneducated and intolérant dont forget and underestimate that he was a fervent militant in the 'very federalist' quebec's liberal party before become a militant clown.

We don't need tribunes to tell quebecers to feel sorry of trying to find solutions for the survival of their nations, no more than we need extremist french quebecers to spell that speaking english is bad and

Speaking of politics, in an interview, he said that he could support independance, the way Quebec's solidaire position because it is inclusive...Well, who proposed that french quebecers were exclusive toward immigrants? The PQ was tagged to be racist, xeno, intolerant ...name it since the 101 law.These are typical Qc liberals arguments. The charter of value justify to believe Qc is exclusive? The charter was about getting religion out of state worker job who should serve the population with neutral religious consideration, and not to get immigrants out! QS will never do independance because there will always be a static base of liberal and more centered party voters that will wipe this party out of the map, so it is extremely comfortable to endorse that "utopique" hard lefty party.

The PQ can do no wrong is completely wrong, it is the only party that allows everyones opinion at the point where it became a problem because they are so easy to attack, I suspect that it's about to change shortly otherwize there death is coming

Last edited by Guytar1220; 12-20-2014 at 11:14 PM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Did you ever think to consider that some Canadians (even those who don't speak French) actually care? For all this discussion and the fact that people will go on about how emotive and fearful we are honestly I think many Canadians including Quebecers have a fear about separation.. Let's face it, there are some appeals on both sides - many Canadians do have a sort of Quebec fatigue where it just feel like separatists are holding the country hostage - some will even go so far as to call them terrorists..

On the flip - you have Quebecers who just convince themselves that people don't genuinely care on a human level and just want to keep the union out of habit or history.. I think honestly for most the truth is in between but don't think that just because someone in Toronto who doesn't speak French and isn't engrained in your culture doesn't care - that just isn't true..

Ultimately I think this is why for whatever reason(s) we all stick together - this is a big world and there are plenty of influences out there.. we can deny the potency of them but they are indeed there.. I don't want to sound like a mother hen lol, but its true.. Canada as it is doesn't exist just because of English Canada.. In all its good and all its bad its something that all of us and our ancestors built.. This is why I have always maintained that Quebec and her people should ultimately be able to decide their own fate and if secession is that determination than I would respect that. Would it upset me? Sure it would - why shouldn't it.. Why shouldn't it upset most of us and this is the real truth here, we are talking about something that has its issues yet when all is said and done do we live in a nation that does afford most citizens a good Q.O.L and freedom!! All indications are we do... Would that continue post separation - I think so and perhaps it would be better I honestly don't know but I think we all have to be truthful with ourselves that we would lose something and it wouldn't be easy and we really don't know if we will be better off... For some, it would be an exciting new journey but for many it would be also a scary and challenging one and truth be told - nobody in these forums knows exactly what would happen.. Its not fear mongering, it is the truth and its something many of us share is what would happen and would we be better off or not so it is a reason we keep things status quo..

It is in all probability going to be a long time before there is another referendum... I hope in the coming decade we do work in a manner that will create more lasting connections and a stronger unity for the children of tomorrow.. Call it dramatic but we have to live in real life and not on a forum trying to score points or reputation.. As for the Vis a vis thing - big deal you learn and move on - humility and humanism is a good thing for any people or culture

The question of separation isn't just a list or an argument or facts and details to be won like a debate class - it is something that rests in the heart, mind, soul and the life of experience of a human being who is faced with that decision..
I find your response strange because I never said that ROC doesn't care about Qc, I was refering to french quebecers that doesn't care about Canada, They are not happy with Canada, but prefer to take the risk of staying as is for opportunistic reasons instead of taking the risk of becoming independant. They may also vote NO to a referendum and let federalists believe that they are part of the happy campers within the country, which is often not the case at all.

Why I say that? Because the federalists have started to use the tactic of repeting that nobody wants to ear about referendum and that no ones care about independance anymore. We know that after repeting often enough people start to integrate the idea. But meanwhile NO efforts is made on the constitutionnal side, none, niet, nada, and canadians believe that quebecers will never be fed up, like we say in french, federalist are dangerously sleeping on the switch, remember the canadian constitution is not signed by Qc.

Secondly even if english speaking canadian cares about protection of french language, it doesn't work. You read it too how the 101 law get controversy and thats simply to protect abuses in non-offcial language utilisation...Imagine if It is a pain just for that, earlier I gave the example of CRTC which had the power to tell Netflix to translate the House of Cards in french by Qc base translators, Netflix decided to get it all translated in France, what can qc do about that, nothing because telecommunication is not under our jurisdiction and the on the board of CRTC who is primarly driven by anglophones, they do not have that awareness and sensitivity.

When you talk about unity, I know you believe it..but that will not happen. For that to happen you'd have ro open the constitution and that will never happen. Nobody want's to touch that more that they liked to have herpes. The only way it's going to move is when Qc separate or when canadians will show a real interest to abolish the current constitution and start to work to get Qc in the constitution, until then we're in the purgatory
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Old 12-21-2014, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGompers View Post
I think it's a legit movement. I don't know much about Canadian politics and/or the issues on both sides of the separatists argument. Maybe this was said before I don't know since I haven't read 42 pages, but I think geography has the greatest influence here since Quebec is in the middle 1/3 of Canada. If they became a separate country Canada would have an "east" and "west" However, if Quebec province was on the end of the coast (east or west) I think it would be a done deal.
The independant movement is not really helped or constraint by the territory, many motivations are behind this will, it goes from cultural, economic, diplomatic and environmental differenciations, but one important issue to pursue negociation and improvement is the current constitution which Qc did not signed btw. An important area where Qc refused to sign is about the charter of rights which mainly focus on individual rights, voiding the collectives rights. Many important and serious négociations were made ending with very deep failures.

The current PM in quebec is a fervent federalist from the Liberal party and before being elected, he talked about his wish of getting Qc to sign the constitution. We never heard about it, and never probably will since quebecers are not willing to sign at any conditions, which make the project becomes very difficult and sensitive.

A part from that, there are no real interest showed by the federal gov to solve the problem. In the province of Qc, after the last referendum of 95, quebecers putted the seperation aside hoping that federalists had understood the strong message (which is not the case at all) and that efforts will be made to help construct adhesion of Qc in Canada. Instead a law was putted in place to refuse the 50%+1 in case of a next referendum. The canadians gov ran the country without any sensivity toward the situation except for the recognition of a distinct society which is just an empty box for now

Last edited by Guytar1220; 12-21-2014 at 01:40 AM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
No it's not progress, at least certainly not for french quebecers...Yes Sugar Sammy is a 101 kid success and he admit it and I can thank him for that, but he's attitude is not warrant of positive contribution in quebec's pride and self esteem, isn't it what quebecers suffered the most in the last hundreds of years? Are you suggesting that this is what we need? He capitalize on existing pre-judgment towards french quebecers, somes of these like Jeff Fillion does exactly the same thing, at least Sugar Sammy is not living out of our taxes.

Humour that have the goal of breaking spereotypes, barrers, caricaturize our culture and make us think forward are very good for a society and I endorse that, but that's not what he is doing. he's goal is not to make us think differently, but to make us drop our will for a multiethnic independant nation in favor of multiculturalism (which abolish the predominance of a common ground culture btw) by making us believe that we are stupid, uneducated and intolérant dont forget and underestimate that he was a fervent militant in the 'very federalist' quebec's liberal party before become a militant clown.

We don't need tribunes to tell quebecers to feel sorry of trying to find solutions for the survival of their nations, no more than we need extremist french quebecers to spell that speaking english is bad and

Speaking of politics, in an interview, he said that he could support independance, the way Quebec's solidaire position because it is inclusive...Well, who proposed that french quebecers were exclusive toward immigrants? The PQ was tagged to be racist, xeno, intolerant ...name it since the 101 law.These are typical Qc liberals arguments. The charter of value justify to believe Qc is exclusive? The charter was about getting religion out of state worker job who should serve the population with neutral religious consideration, and not to get immigrants out! QS will never do independance because there will always be a static base of liberal and more centered party voters that will wipe this party out of the map, so it is extremely comfortable to endorse that "utopique" hard lefty party.

The PQ can do no wrong is completely wrong, it is the only party that allows everyones opinion at the point where it became a problem because they are so easy to attack, I suspect that it's about to change shortly otherwize there death is coming
Sugar Sammy says things that are also said by some Québécois of French Canadian descent. I don't see why they would be allowed to but he wouldn't be allowed to. There are lots of different opinions out there.
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Old 12-21-2014, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sugar Sammy says things that are also said by some Québécois of French Canadian descent. I don't see why they would be allowed to but he wouldn't be allowed to. There are lots of different opinions out there.
It is true that there still exists many french descent that look at themselves with contempt, which I am profoundly sorry for. Broadcasting opinions is progress, contempt toward separatist and institutions like OLF is something else. Now tell me how contempt toward federalists would be any progress?

Last edited by Guytar1220; 12-21-2014 at 09:41 AM..
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Old 12-21-2014, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Sugar Sammy says things that are also said by some Québécois of French Canadian descent. I don't see why they would be allowed to but he wouldn't be allowed to. There are lots of different opinions out there.
And by the way I am not saying that he is not allowed to say whatever he wants, I am simply reject the idea of progress behind his jokes
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Old 12-21-2014, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
In our country, we learned what results any efforts such a referendum should have. Virginia voted during early April to secede and the Virginia legislature seceded the state on or about April 17, 1861. We all know what happened then.

To me "referendum" is also known as "treason."
Referendum is a way to delegate decison to the people in a democratic manner. Now bad intensions are everywhere, combine citizen ignorance and elite/media demagoguery it may not well end up, I conceed that. But lets not kill the messenger, many would like to tag a negative word on referendum...believe me on that one it is up to us to make our citizen duties with care versus criticising the well-founded of this democratic tool
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Old 12-21-2014, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Shawinigan
144 posts, read 100,308 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
Trudeau is certainly the most handsome of the bunch that is for sure.. He can kick butt in a boxing ring as well lol... I disagree with you regarding his appeal and I think he is the most appealing candidate out there right now and I think polls show that... Does he have to gain some experience - sure but heck i'm not a big fan of Harper at all - I think he is a divisive fellow and overall hasn't been good for Canada and lacks vision.. He is far too apt to put people who don't agree with his ideology out to pasteur - he's far from being all of Canada's Prime Minister - he's ice cold....

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms doesn't protect Canadians ie. Fundamental freedoms etc??... what am I missing.

The last part about us all knowing that Quebec would not be able to sustain itself is exactly the type of fuel that is NOT productive and is something you simply don't know!! It creates division and inspires nothing but increased anger and hostility...

Did you correct my spelling of Constitution - seriously people, I type a whole bunch of as some say 'rants' cut me some damned slack will ya... People are too serious in here... We are partaking in a casual forum here.. I feel like some of y'all think you are a Professor who needs to correct every last thing.. PUHLEASE
On Trudeau father, Mirabel airport forced the expatriation of many citizens, and cost a fortune to canadians in taxes...now it is being demolished...worse Dorval airport is called PE Trudeau airport, go figure!

Charter of right is good, but should also be surrounded by collective duties and this is where Qc disagree significantly with ROC
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Old 12-21-2014, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
21,962 posts, read 27,416,532 times
Reputation: 8626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guytar1220 View Post
And by the way I am not saying that he is not allowed to say whatever he wants, I am simply reject the idea of progress behind his jokes
OK, I don't see what he says in his jokes as a sign of progress. It's the fact that a guy like him can seek to be a part of and become integrated into the Québécois star system that I see as progress.
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