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Overall, English Canadians aren't jealous or even envious of French Canadians or Quebec for very much. And the reverse is true as well. Both groups are pretty self-satisfied.
I would say that I feel a certain envy for how "easier" being an anglophone Canadian seems to be, compared with being a francophone Quebecer. There's of course the cultural security, but it goes further than this. Quebec society is extremely self-critical, we're constantly questioning everything about us, whether our culture has any value, whether we're racist or not, whether our impact on the world is positive or negative, etc. If I were to use the term "us" in a public speech, everybody would immediately dissect whether by this I meant only people who can trace their ancestry to French settlers in Quebec in 1650, whether it's more inclusive than this, or whether it even includes people in Quebec who don't speak a lick of French and have no intention to learn it. And, if not the latter, whether that makes me a horrible racist. Xavier Dolan's movie Mommy was a mega-success last year? A large part of the ensuing discussion was on whether as Quebecers we should be ashamed of the language used in it. (cf. Michel Tremblay's Les Belles-Sœurs)
Contrast this with English Canada. Is there even any serious public discussion of Canada's founding myths? Whether the "Canadian mosaic" is even any different from the American "melting pot", let alone whether it truly is better? Whether Canada really is a post-racial society that's solved all the problems with race that plague the United States? Whether Canadian society truly embraces bilingualism and the French language? English Canadians just don't seem to ever question their (unambiguously positive) role in the world.
I wouldn't say that I would like Quebec society to be more like Canadian society in this regard, in the sense that I like the fact that we question ourselves. I feel that we're one of the most secure democracies in the world today, because of how severe I know the backlash would be to any idea that might be construed as a threat to democracy. But I would like francophone Quebecers to be a bit less disdainful of themselves, and in this I am somewhat envious of anglophone Canadians.
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The other side acknowledges that French is important globally, but counters that it's not worth it to learn French here because it's not ''real French'' that is spoken by French Canadians.
I think this is one of the most insulting things they believe about us. Actually I can't think of any explanation for this (very prevalent) belief, that shows it to be anything else than an insult. And the sad part is that many francophones also believe this. But as I've said, we are extremely critical and disdainful of ourselves. Having disdain for one's own people is sad, but not uncommon. Having disdain for another people based on incomplete or false facts, that's bigotry.
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If there is any slight envy on the part of English Canadians it's the fact that language affords us a decent cultural barrier to stave off Americanization more effectively (but not entirely). But even then, not all English Canadians view things this way and many see the language thing as an insularity-fostering albatross for Quebec. (I hope that's the correct use of the world albatross).
Some may think this, but then again other English Canadians might, rather than try to stave off their own Americanization, try to redefine American culture as "North American culture", and say that its influence on the world reflects positively on, not only the United States, but also Canada. After all, many English Canadians work in the American cultural industry. I think that while some English Canadians might feel culturally insecure next to the United States, another large group view this as more of an opportunity. (But then you get Canadians who complain that American popular culture doesn't accurately represent the Canadian experience.)
It may sound silly but do any of you English Canadians get jealous of Quebeckers because they speak French (unique) and most are bilingual in French and English (some also in other languages) while you only speak English? If I was English Canadian I would have been jealous. Knowing other languages especially a world language like French is a huge plus + many Quebeckers can work for the federal government.
As AJ says the whole issue is complicated,why not come on up to Quebec and immerse yourself in that Quebec French culture you seem so jealous for. Start here= https://www.google.ca/#safe=active&q...french+courses
IMO its the rare unilingual English Canadian that is jealous of Quebeckers just because they can speak French,Perhaps some one newly relocated to Quebec who may wish they could be instantly bilingual but for those Anglos living outside Quebec i doubt much thought is given to Quebec or its predominantly French language.
I'd imagine most unilingual French Quebeckers wish they could speak English so they could more readily explore what North America has to offer.
I would say that I feel a certain envy for how "easier" being an anglophone Canadian seems to be, compared with being a francophone Quebecer. There's of course the cultural security, but it goes further than this. Quebec society is extremely self-critical, we're constantly questioning everything about us, whether our culture has any value, whether we're racist or not, whether our impact on the world is positive or negative, etc. If I were to use the term "us" in a public speech, everybody would immediately dissect whether by this I meant only people who can trace their ancestry to French settlers in Quebec in 1650, whether it's more inclusive than this, or whether it even includes people in Quebec who don't speak a lick of French and have no intention to learn it. And, if not the latter, whether that makes me a horrible racist. Xavier Dolan's movie Mommy was a mega-success last year? A large part of the ensuing discussion was on whether as Quebecers we should be ashamed of the language used in it. (cf. Michel Tremblay's Les Belles-Sœurs)
Contrast this with English Canada. Is there even any serious public discussion of Canada's founding myths? Whether the "Canadian mosaic" is even any different from the American "melting pot", let alone whether it truly is better? Whether Canada really is a post-racial society that's solved all the problems with race that plague the United States? Whether Canadian society truly embraces bilingualism and the French language? English Canadians just don't seem to ever question their (unambiguously positive) role in the world.
I wouldn't say that I would like Quebec society to be more like Canadian society in this regard, in the sense that I like the fact that we question ourselves. I feel that we're one of the most secure democracies in the world today, because of how severe I know the backlash would be to any idea that might be construed as a threat to democracy. But I would like francophone Quebecers to be a bit less disdainful of themselves, and in this I am somewhat envious of anglophone Canadians.
(...)
Some may think this, but then again other English Canadians might, rather than try to stave off their own Americanization, try to redefine American culture as "North American culture", and say that its influence on the world reflects positively on, not only the United States, but also Canada. After all, many English Canadians work in the American cultural industry. I think that while some English Canadians might feel culturally insecure next to the United States, another large group view this as more of an opportunity. (But then you get Canadians who complain that American popular culture doesn't accurately represent the Canadian experience.)
Interesting observations. Having been raised in and socialized in Anglo-Canada for a slight majority of my lifetime, I would say that Anglo-Canada self-examines more than you think it does.
It might not be out in the open no-holds barred like in Quebec which has a French-style everything-on-the-table-let's-talk that leads to everything from Bouchard-Taylor to Parler pour parler avec Janette Bertrand, but there is still some questioning.
Especially on the issue of differentiation from the Americans. All those weird over the top comments about Americans you read on here do come from somewhere. And do have their counterparts in the mainstream media and backyard BBQ discussions. It's not everyone but certainly it's a noticeable feature of the culture. (I know it will be denied by some on here in the next few minutes BTW...)
I know you might be surprised by this but because of this Quebec to me is a more restful place identity-wise. Not just because it is primarily francophone. Actually, that might not be the main reason.
Yes, Quebec can be defensive (sometimes in a reactionary way) but on the other hand it generally knows what it is. To me that's more satisfying than constantly living the push and pull in English Canada between being like the Americans and trying to distance ourselves from them.
The other stuff you mentioned (about self-doubt as to whether we are ''good'' or not) I can live with. As you say it's more common than it isn't around the world.
Every person is different, and I'll take that over the aggravation of always being mistaken for an American internationally, or even having people (that you've just corrected on this) being told insistently by these same people that you're exactly the same as an American.
I am not saying that everyone in the world denies the existence of Canadians as a people, but let's just say that (ironically or surprisingly) I feel like I am more on people's radar globally being a Québécois or a French Canadian than simply as a ''Canadian'' (short-form).
(This is not to say that ''Canada'' does not have a good reputation globally. It does. But beyond that most people are slim on the details and how all of that really differs from the U.S.)
AJ am i reading an anti American demeanor in your posts?Your pal PB also has some issue with America.
I think America is a great country and has much benefit to offer any country that is in some way becoming Americanized, only downside i see is their obsession with politics/guns and race.
AJ am i reading an anti American demeanor in your posts?Your pal PB also has some issue with America.
I think America is a great country and has much benefit to offer any country that is in some way becoming Americanized, only downside i see is their obsession with politics/guns and race.
That's not the point at all. I am actually more pro-American than most (Anglo-)Canadians I'd say.
Get this. Saying ''you'' are not the same as ''us'' is not the same thing as saying ''you suck''. Different is not necessarily better, it's just different.
Americans are not ''you'' and you're not ''them". But if you ride on their coattails for their glory and greatness but then conveniently distance yourself from them when they f---up, then expect people around the world including Americans to call you on that fairly regularly. The end result of this may not annoy you personally but it does annoy enough Canadians to make it a noticeable thing.
I can't believe there is some sort of insecurity among Quebeckers. You know, if I were born in Canada, I would choose to be a francophone than an Anglophone. Why?
1) Most Francophones in the cities speak English anyone, while hardly many English Canadians speak French.
2) Quebec has a much stronger cultural identity than the rest of the country. I maintain my position English Canadians have no clear identity whatsoever. it is all fuzzy to themselves and to the rest of the world.
AJ am i reading an anti American demeanor in your posts?Your pal PB also has some issue with America.
I think America is a great country and has much benefit to offer any country that is in some way becoming Americanized, only downside i see is their obsession with politics/guns and race.
so what? What's wrong with disliking America? You can feel free to think "America" is a "great" country, but shouldn't others have the right to think being Americanized is bad thing?
I would hate anywhere outside America to be Americanized. Every country should maintain its own strong local culture and systems. The "freedom" and "democracy" in America is hugely overrated. America is not really one of the best function society in the world - not among even the top 10 I am afraid.
Only downside is politics/guns/race? Humm, I guess it is someone who never actually lived in the US.
What about police brutality (not just when it comes to black people)? What about the failing education system? What about the rampant car culture and massive energy waste by every citizen? What about the shallow and sex-centred popular culture reflected in most of the movies, TV shows and music? What about its hypocritical double standard foreign policy? What about its 19 century Jesus culture in the south? What about their "only me matters I am not interested in the outside world" ignorance? What about the fact the entire country is hijacked by a bunch of selfish bankers?
One has many reasons to not like America, while you only looked at it though rose coloured glasses.
The idea of American exceptionalism disgusts me. America adoring Canadians usually make me speechless.
I think Acajack had some really good points. I'd just like to add that as a Canadian who now lives in the US, and travels extensively for work; Nobody cares about Canada.
I don't mean it in a spiteful way, but for all the hand wringing and navel gazing energy that Canadians spend on our "global profile", we don't move the needle in a meaningful way anywhere. Canadians are generally viewed as US Lite. The moderate reasonable people who are the same as the Americans, but drink more, swear WAY more and don't hit you with the Jesus stick.
I think Acajack had some really good points. I'd just like to add that as a Canadian who now lives in the US, and travels extensively for work; Nobody cares about Canada.
I don't mean it in a spiteful way, but for all the hand wringing and navel gazing energy that Canadians spend on our "global profile", we don't move the needle in a meaningful way anywhere. Canadians are generally viewed as US Lite. The moderate reasonable people who are the same as the Americans, but drink more, swear WAY more and don't hit you with the Jesus stick.
Right.
But Canada is seldom considered as "America lite". People simply don't think about Canada at all, and when they do, they usually have no idea what is like, except a vague idea "It is sort of like America, just with cold weather and universal healthcare". That's it.
This is why the idea English Canadians think they are somehow more important than French Canadians is laughable. French Canadians are at least interesting from a cultural perspective. English Canadians are just "meh" - who cares.
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