Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I thought she would suspect KA's involvement when admin told her to keep her place clean. The fact that she didn't was an indication that she might comply with one or two more instructions if they appeared to come from the facility.
Getting her more mentally and physically engaged in her personal care could help to maintain her brain function which potentially could enable her to stay where she is much longer. To their loved ones, it may seem they are giving up more of their independence, so they are reluctant to do so, but the risks for a poorer outcome are higher than a few conversational blowups.
She will become angry about many things. She has always used anger, or the threat of it, to manipulate others and to try getting her way.
Just got off the phone with my mom and she sounded great. She was very conversational and I suggested we go shopping and out to eat lunch Saturday and she is all excited about it, saying stuff like, "Isn't it unusual for a mother and daughter to get along as well as we do?" That sort of thing. I just laugh it off.
LOL! I'm sure it's nice to hear that she's enjoying her daughter's company. Hope it lasts as long as possible!
Based on what you have written about her, I doubt she will care that she is paying for it. She will be getting exactly what she wants: her own order. In her mind, she wins using a tactic that has worked for her.
Frankly I think it was an unreasonable expectation that someone in her condition would play nice with sharing an appetizer. Repeating it a second time and expecting different results was unreasonable too, IMO.
ETA: you don't have to tell her that she is paying for it or that she can't touch yours. That would be provoking her into confrontation.
You're not looking at the Narcissistic angle. You're thinking of a cognitively impaired adult. What happened was Hubby CORRECTED HER and a Narcissist isn't having that. If they do not WIN, they will RETALIATE. So she was all oh really, you don't like that? Fine, I will just take it all then! How's that?
Regarding the other, she is going to say that is stupid and a waste (to get two). She just can't imagine why no one wants to share the bowl she put chips in and dips her spoon in to eat from. What is wrong with swapping spit? Well, most people do not like that. For some people 'double dipping' is taboo for that reason. A spoon is much worse.
Her POV is what is wrong with anything I do? Nothing. And you danged sure better not say otherwise. Even when it affects others and that is the only reason they object.
To people who deal with N's, that sort of thing is pretty funny. I completely love the visual of her taking the whole platter.
There is so much tragic stuff that the lighter things like this are a hoot. I wish I had some lighter things to laugh about with 'my' N but there aren't.
You're not looking at the Narcissistic angle. You're thinking of a cognitively impaired adult. What happened was Hubby CORRECTED HER and a Narcissist isn't having that. If they do not WIN, they will RETALIATE. So she was all oh really, you don't like that? Fine, I will just take it all then! How's that?
Regarding the other, she is going to say that is stupid and a waste (to get two). She just can't imagine why no one wants to share the bowl she put chips in and dips her spoon in to eat from. What is wrong with swapping spit? Well, most people do not like that. For some people 'double dipping' is taboo for that reason. A spoon is much worse.
Her POV is what is wrong with anything I do? Nothing. And you danged sure better not say otherwise. Even when it affects others and that is the only reason they object.
To people who deal with N's, that sort of thing is pretty funny. I completely love the visual of her taking the whole platter.
There is so much tragic stuff that the lighter things like this are a hoot. I wish I had some lighter things to laugh about with 'my' N but there aren't.
Girl, I could write true and silly stuff out like this all day long for ten years and still not be done with it!
Once I got some badly needed counseling on boundaries when I was about 35, I was able to be a lot more objective about my mom and (I hate to say it but it's true) many of her antics became more entertaining to me than anything else.
I mean, she is hopelessly bizarre, so I may as well see the humor in it. She's been a very strange person apparently her entire life.
And you nailed her in your synopsis of the situation. And she probably will boycott the queso because it's "stupid" to get two orders. I am actually looking forward to seeing what she does about that.
Girl, I could write true and silly stuff out like this all day long for ten years and still not be done with it!
Once I got some badly needed counseling on boundaries when I was about 35, I was able to be a lot more objective about my mom and (I hate to say it but it's true) many of her antics became more entertaining to me than anything else.
I mean, she is hopelessly bizarre, so I may as well see the humor in it. She's been a very strange person apparently her entire life.
And you nailed her in your synopsis of the situation. And she probably will boycott the queso because it's "stupid" to get two orders. I am actually looking forward to seeing what she does about that.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, Kathryn, but if it were not for your sense of humor regarding your mom and her antics, I think we might find you in a mental hospital somewhere. Well you know what I mean!
My dad had cataract surgery about a week before we had to make the decision to put him in the memory unit. The anesthetic he was given, he never fully recovered from and it changed his personality. He had a previously scheduled appointment at his regular Doctor a couple days after the cataract surgery. The Doctor took one look at him and told me to take him to the hospital at once! During his 3 days in the hospital, he was violent at times and refused his meds and threw the tray on the floor when they brought his meal. The Doctor was as shocked as we all were. We knew he had Parkinson's and Lewy Body dementia. But this anesthetic changed him and it was difficult for us how quickly he went downhill after that.
At first he did ok in the memory unit. But his health declined so quickly, he was only in there 10 months. He was 84 at the time.
It takes a toll on you, the family. And my sister posted about it on Facebook so all these friends of the family who had known my dad over the years would message my sister or me and I even got calls from some of them.
But during all this you become very sad and never know what will happen next. Reading your posts is kind of like therapy for me, and possibly for you I would think. You really should write a book.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, Kathryn, but if it were not for your sense of humor regarding your mom and her antics, I think we might find you in a mental hospital somewhere. Well you know what I mean!
My dad had cataract surgery about a week before we had to make the decision to put him in the memory unit. The anesthetic he was given, he never fully recovered from and it changed his personality. He had a previously scheduled appointment at his regular Doctor a couple days after the cataract surgery. The Doctor took one look at him and told me to take him to the hospital at once! During his 3 days in the hospital, he was violent at times and refused his meds and threw the tray on the floor when they brought his meal. The Doctor was as shocked as we all were. We knew he had Parkinson's and Lewy Body dementia. But this anesthetic changed him and it was difficult for us how quickly he went downhill after that.
At first he did ok in the memory unit. But his health declined so quickly, he was only in there 10 months. He was 84 at the time.
It takes a toll on you, the family. And my sister posted about it on Facebook so all these friends of the family who had known my dad over the years would message my sister or me and I even got calls from some of them.
But during all this you become very sad and never know what will happen next. Reading your posts is kind of like therapy for me, and possibly for you I would think. You really should write a book.
Oh my gosh, I know exactly what you mean about the anesthesia and I am so sorry about your dad. It's terrible to "lose" someone and yet they are still there - well, their body is but the person we have all the memories with is gone. Your dad's reaction seems extreme but I don't doubt it at all - my mom reacted very weirdly to her surgery/anesthesia when she fell and broke her hip and had to have a rod inserted. She has also never fully recovered personality wise - but she was already jacked up so it wasn't as extreme a change as your dad's.
And no, I didn't take your opening remarks in a negative way - I know exactly what you mean. And I also know that what I've been through with my family WOULD drive some people to absolute despair. There are a few reasons I think it didn't do that with me. 1) My paternal grandmother loved us kids dearly and lived with us off and on throughout my childhood, and 2) God just blessed me with the sort of personality that has been able to assimilate this stuff.
I know exactly what you mean though about that pervasive feeling of sadness. Sometimes I wake up to it before I even open my eyes, and that's hard. This started about four years ago when my MIL and FIL both suddenly got very sick simultaneously - and it has literally never let up since then. One parent or another has been either at death's door or very seriously ill non stop since then - and two of the four with dementia. It's been terrible. My challenge has been to try to keep this from fundamentally changing my attitude and demeanor toward life in general. I don't think I've fully succeeded in that endeavor. However, I'm better at assimilating it than I was six months ago so maybe the changes (which haven't been particularly positive) will subside over time. I hope so. I liked who I was BEFORE all this continual tragedy and frustration.
I really have stepped way back, and thankfully I was able to confront my dad and establish healthy boundaries with him several years before he died. It took me a few years of therapy to get the burn marks off of me, that's for sure.
Now that Mom is settled, I'm able to step back a lot and I've done so. I do see her twice a week but I make sure that one of those times is very short - business only (I swear, every week there is SOME sort of appointment that she has to go to, between doctor appts, estate settlement stuff, etc.)
It took a lot of work to get to this point though - and I admit that I do struggle with guilty feelings, because when my MIL had Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and was in a facility, my husband or I or both of us stopped by to visit with her every other day out of love and sympathy. Even when it was unpleasant due to her deep depression and disability, we made sure we went by and shared meals with her, or brought her something, or just took her out on the patio in the beautiful weather.
But she didn't have the history with my husband that my mom has with me. That being said, she had her own demons and my husband lived through that as a child - she was involuntarily committed at one point due to a suicide attempt and she struggled with clinical depression her entire life, which was no picnic for my husband growing up.
But she wasn't mean. There's a difference. Like my husband and I say, "His mom was passive aggressive. My mom is aggressive aggressive."
It helps though that at least my husband does understand mental illness better than some folks due to having grown up around it, even though it was a different form. And he and I are both very affectionate, upbeat, empathetic people. Growing up, we both carried a bigger load than we should have, feeling as if we were the parent instead of the child, like we had more responsibility to hold things together, to be cheerful, obedient, responsible, etc. in family units that were very negatively affected by our mothers' mental illnesses.
My husband is the one who encouraged me to get some additional counseling earlier this year, which was GREAT advice. He went with me several times as well. It was very helpful and got us back on the same page and set my priorities straighter.
Because there is literally no one else who will take care of my mom, I feel like I have to do it. He agrees with me and supports this. But one of our goals has been to get her to a point where she doesn't need my attention for hours every day and after about 8 months, I think we're at that point. Thank GOD the property out of state is nearly all sold - that was a huge burden that's nearly over for me. And the taxes are done and the business is closed down - all that was really weighing on me.
I feel like we're in a groove now. But after the first of the year, I need to meet with an elder care attorney to be sure that I've got everything as straight as possible to protect her from my mentally ill brother, who will certainly be looking for a way to get to her money and to "work her" to his benefit. But for now - I'm in a good place. This could change with one phone call from the ER but so far, so good!
I find your kindness, in light of how you've been treated, admirable. There is a book a counselor had me read years ago..Children of the Lie. It is dark reading but wow did it open my eyes.
Very few people are aware of how I was treated within my family. Outside of my siblings, only my sons & husband have witnessed it and frankly are outraged. The boys started becoming outraged at about 12. They are all very insistent I have little to do with my parents. I kept going back for more, thinking it would be different or that it was me.
I know I can't help projecting, but so much in your story resonates. Just be certain to take care of YOU.
You're not looking at the Narcissistic angle. You're thinking of a cognitively impaired adult. What happened was Hubby CORRECTED HER and a Narcissist isn't having that. If they do not WIN, they will RETALIATE. So she was all oh really, you don't like that? Fine, I will just take it all then! How's that?
Regarding the other, she is going to say that is stupid and a waste (to get two). She just can't imagine why no one wants to share the bowl she put chips in and dips her spoon in to eat from. What is wrong with swapping spit? Well, most people do not like that. For some people 'double dipping' is taboo for that reason. A spoon is much worse.
Her POV is what is wrong with anything I do? Nothing. And you danged sure better not say otherwise. Even when it affects others and that is the only reason they object.
To people who deal with N's, that sort of thing is pretty funny. I completely love the visual of her taking the whole platter.
There is so much tragic stuff that the lighter things like this are a hoot. I wish I had some lighter things to laugh about with 'my' N but there aren't.
She used to share appetizers, now she doesn't. That sounds like cognitive decline as do the sudden changes in food preferences, among other things. We can't blame her mental illness for those episodes because she is much improved now with medication. KA's husband tried to appeal to her logically but that doesn't work with dementia, and there were no immediate consequences. Her dementia may have worsened, or it may be more defined now that BPD traits aren't masking it.
Old boundaries no longer work. It might have been more effective to firmly tell her, "No." If she persisted, then there should have been clear and immediate consequences, such as leaving the restaurant for example. I am serious that establishing boundaries with dementia is the same as establishing them with toddlers.
I haven't seen any mention that KA's mom has been diagnosed with NPD, only BPD and dementia as far as I know. BPD and NPD can look alike. Negative social traits in BPD are generally adaptations for psychological survival and can include passive-aggressive, narcissistic, borderline, sociopathy and other traits. In other words, BPDs use a cocktail of maladaptive traits to cope psychologically. Narcissistic traits don't make her a Narcissist; sociopathic traits don't make her a Sociopath.
I agree that she might react as you say if she senses that it's a passive-aggressive attempt at revenge. It's also an ambiguous boundary she can push. If she senses they are pleased with themselves as victors, then yep, she will feel attacked and attempt to defend herself in the only way she knows how. I can't stress enough that establishing clear, firm boundaries with immediate consequences as you would with a toddler is key if you want to reduce or eliminate drama, frustration and stress.
I find your kindness, in light of how you've been treated, admirable. There is a book a counselor had me read years ago..Children of the Lie. It is dark reading but wow did it open my eyes.
Very few people are aware of how I was treated within my family. Outside of my siblings, only my sons & husband have witnessed it and frankly are outraged. The boys started becoming outraged at about 12. They are all very insistent I have little to do with my parents. I kept going back for more, thinking it would be different or that it was me.
I know I can't help projecting, but so much in your story resonates. Just be certain to take care of YOU.
Was the book People of the Lie by M Scott Peck? If so, I read that one and WOW, it really was helpful. Like you said, dark, but helpful. It made me realize that I'm not alone.
And I'm OK - I really am. I promise. But thank you for your concern, I mean that genuinely.
She used to share appetizers, now she doesn't. That sounds like cognitive decline as do the sudden changes in food preferences, among other things. We can't blame her mental illness for those episodes because she is much improved now with medication. KA's husband tried to appeal to her logically but that doesn't work with dementia, and there were no immediate consequences. Her dementia may have worsened, or it may be more defined now that BPD traits aren't masking it.
Old boundaries no longer work. It might have been more effective to firmly tell her, "No." If she persisted, then there should have been clear and immediate consequences, such as leaving the restaurant for example. I am serious that establishing boundaries with dementia is the same as establishing them with toddlers.
I haven't seen any mention that KA's mom has been diagnosed with NPD, only BPD and dementia as far as I know. BPD and NPD can look alike. Negative social traits in BPD are generally adaptations for psychological survival and can include passive-aggressive, narcissistic, borderline, sociopathy and other traits. In other words, BPDs use a cocktail of maladaptive traits to cope psychologically. Narcissistic traits don't make her a Narcissist; sociopathic traits don't make her a Sociopath.
I agree that she might react as you say if she senses that it's a passive-aggressive attempt at revenge. It's also an ambiguous boundary she can push. If she senses they are pleased with themselves as victors, then yep, she will feel attacked and attempt to defend herself in the only way she knows how. I can't stress enough that establishing clear, firm boundaries with immediate consequences as you would with a toddler is key if you want to reduce or eliminate drama, frustration and stress.
My mom is BETTER on her meds (when it comes to her mental illness symptoms) but for medication to be truly effective, a person has to be interactive with their treatment - starting with acknowledging that there is a need for treatment. My mom has never one time acknowledged that she has a mental illness. Not only that, now she is trying to get my brother, whose treatment has been successful because of his interaction with it, to believe HE is not mentally ill, and she's encouraging him to get off his meds!
Logic and reasoning also doesn't work with serious mental illness that's still being denied either. Ever tried to convince someone who is paranoid that they are not being monitored via a chip in their head? Even on meds, many of them will insist that the chip is there - they're just able to sleep better in spite of it.
My brother has been diagnosed and re-diagnosed over and over again - sometimes with a personality disorder, sometimes with schizophrenia, sometimes with bipolar disorder 1, sometimes with a combination of two or three of the above. My mom has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, anorexia nervosa, mild dementia, anxiety, clinical depression, paranoia, you name it. And all of these diagnoses were "by hook or by crook" because she hasn't consented to much diagnosis at all, so the formal diagnoses are sort of scattered over the past 30 years.
One thing I've learned via dealing with multiple family members with serious mental illnesses, as well as going to the in depth classes offered to family members through NAMI, is that the line between different conditions is very often very blurred. Conditions overlap, shift, increase, respond well to meds, quit responding to meds, etc over the years.
So frankly, it really doesn't matter that much to me what it's called. I do know that not sharing appetizers or whatever well is consistent with my mother's basic personality. What I think has happened with the (still mild) dementia is that some of her former inhibitions and understanding of societal norms and expectations have fallen away, so she's just a lot more brazen in her actions, which stem from her basic personality and the damage that untreated mental illness has caused for decades.
I do agree that establishing boundaries is paramount with my mom. That's what I do. Of course, when I describe enforcing these boundaries (for instance, taking her home instead of out to eat after a showdown), I get negative feedback from that as well - How can I be so mean to my mom who has dementia? Well, boundaries WORK with my mom. The administrator went and talked to her and told her if she didn't keep her apartment cleaner she was going to have to move out and VOILA - the apartment is markedly cleaner. That's just one example.
Buying her her own appetizer (well, making sure SHE buys her own appetizer) isn't just for "victory." It's mainly because I am sick of her ruining my appetite and appetizer at the table. I'm sure she will be irritated by this - but that's just too bad. That's my boundary - I don't want her ruining my food but she is free to do whatever she wants with her own.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
