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The #1 thing that gets glossed over in this discussion is the timeline. They're aiming for 2019, and make it clear in the RFP that having the site at that time is "of paramount importance," i.e., Absolutely Non-Negotiable Consideration #1.
To put 2019 into perspective, the TSA just awarded a build-to-suit contract for a new headquarters south of DC. The buildings are drawn, the developer has cash in the bank, and the office will open in late 2020.
Amazon doesn't have time for rezonings, public hearings, geological surprises, soil contamination, buying out leases, maybe-someday transit lines, or the ten thousand wish-upon-a-star fantasies that litter the internet. It needs clean dirt that's ready to go, or a monster of a warm-shell building that already has construction crews hard at work.
And that's where the Old Post Office comes in. The size, timing, and location (atop fiber and transit) line up perfectly. As one of the country's biggest buildings, it was so impossibly huge that plans for it would always trip over itself -- but now that's actually working in its favor. (Remember, this was a building that used to sort packages for Sears and Monkey Ward.) And if there's a need for flashy skyscrapers as early as 2020, those are shovel-ready a block over, whether at Union Station or on Wacker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavePa
I'm not knocking Schuylkill Yards STILL readying for construction. It is a plan over decades too over RAIL-YARDS.
Schuylkill Yards is a shovel-ready site owned by Drexel University (it was a newspaper printing plant, IIRC) that sits west of the station hall; the rail yards are a separate project to the north. Spec construction is due to start soon, for 2019 delivery, per the developer's most recent quarterly report.
The #1 thing that gets glossed over in this discussion is the timeline. They're aiming for 2019, and make it clear in the RFP that having the site at that time is "of paramount importance," i.e., Absolutely Non-Negotiable Consideration #1.
To put 2019 into perspective, the TSA just awarded a build-to-suit contract for a new headquarters south of DC. The buildings are drawn, the developer has cash in the bank, and the office will open in late 2020.
Amazon doesn't have time for rezonings, public hearings, geological surprises, soil contamination, buying out leases, maybe-someday transit lines, or the ten thousand wish-upon-a-star fantasies that litter the internet. It needs clean dirt that's ready to go, or a monster of a warm-shell building that already has construction crews hard at work.
And that's where the Old Post Office comes in. The size, timing, and location (atop fiber and transit) line up perfectly. As one of the country's biggest buildings, it was so impossibly huge that plans for it would always trip over itself -- but now that's actually working in its favor. (Remember, this was a building that used to sort packages for Sears and Monkey Ward.) And if there's a need for flashy skyscrapers as early as 2020, those are shovel-ready a block over, whether at Union Station or on Wacker.
Schuylkill Yards is a shovel-ready site owned by Drexel University (it was a newspaper printing plant, IIRC) that sits west of the station hall; the rail yards are a separate project to the north. Spec construction is due to start soon, for 2019 delivery, per the developer's most recent quarterly report.
yes agreed, the timing is key - 2019 is the timing for ground breaking which is coming quickly in todays world so yes a few sits have an advantage here.
And you are correct on SY, there is nearly 8M sq feet that is available for development starting in about that time frame.
DavePA loves Chicago and is generally very negative on Philly
Personally both Chicago and Philly are two of my favorite cities and could be happy with either (though maybe a little happier if Philly somehow won this)
I need to read up more on the Chicago site, looks promising.
On the rail capping that DavePA referenced, the plan is longer term but with a tenant things can be sped up for this expansion. And it literally abuts the SY development area with the potential for another 15M sq feet. One benefit of the Philly location is that is literally sits on top of one the most integrated rail transit complex's in the US (60 minute rail to NYC, 90 to DC, subways, underground light rail, all the Philly regional rail lines, NJT, Amtrak, 20 minute rail ride to the airport.)
It also has a very interesting location as it basically abuts Univ of Penn and Drexel and sits on the river opposite the parkway and the Philly Art museum. It will include new park and river green space connections. Plus its literally a 60 second walk into Center City, basically imagine the river north river frontage on top of a rail nexus of all rail routes in the city (almost all) the Broad street line requires a connection and 2 minute ride and PATCO HR from jersey requires a transfer at 8th to 30th street
sorry to jump in the Chicago discussion but these (Philly and Chicago) look like two of the better fits for what they are looking, what ultimately drives the decision no one knows
This is the part that is basically shovel ready by 2019 (almost 8M sq ft)
and full build out (another 15M sq ft) of the rail capping that has ample expansion opportunity (SY is the white building below and the colored are the rail capping opportunities for larger build out)
So if Philly doesn't win am rooting for you Chicago
Last edited by kidphilly; 09-23-2017 at 09:37 AM..
Amazon is asking cities to compete to offer tax incentives.
It doesn't matter what "jobs" they bring. The money lost by special tax treatment is not offset anywhere else. It is money lost by the city.
There's enough bitching on this subforum about Chicago taxes (see: the sugar tax). And the sales tax. And the property taxes.
Someone is going to have to pay for Amazon's special demands. Because they won't be paying the city of Chicago or the State of Illinois.
Chicago doesn't have the standing to command relocations like this without offering tax incentives and it's delusional to think otherwise, considering Illinois has quite possibly the very worst tax climate in the country for both businesses and individuals. To think companies of this magnitude would willingly subject themselves to the utterly INSANE politics of Illinois without being thrown a bone, that's delusional.
If you think a shrinking tax base of workers and businesses is an acceptable status quo, fine. But don't complain when your tax burden continues to increase to cover the losses of people who have left because Madigan will continue to expect you to line his pockets.
Chicago doesn't have the standing to command relocations like this without offering tax incentives and it's delusional to think otherwise, considering Illinois has quite possibly the very worst tax climate in the country for both businesses and individuals. To think companies of this magnitude would willingly subject themselves to the utterly INSANE politics of Illinois without being thrown a bone, that's delusional.
If you think a shrinking tax base of workers and businesses is an acceptable status quo, fine. But don't complain when your tax burden continues to increase to cover the losses of people who have left because Madigan will continue to expect you to line his pockets.
Don't even try to cherry pick taxes. Illinois and particularly Chicago is absolutely horrendous with taxes. Sky high sales and property taxes which you conveniently left out and the income tax just increased and will continue to increase to pay for spiraling debt. I will say it again: Illinois has one of the worst tax climates in the nation. And the level of mismanagement of those revenues is categorically unprecedented.
If Amazon does go for Chicago and the old main post office building specifically, I hope part of the incentives pacakage is to build out the Crossrail Chicago plan which would massively expand the reach of reasonable commutes to the building and make an even shorter frequent run to O'Hare than the current Blue Line.
Don't even try to cherry pick taxes. Illinois and particularly Chicago is absolutely horrendous with taxes. Sky high sales and property taxes which you conveniently left out and the income tax just increased and will continue to increase to pay for spiraling debt. I will say it again: Illinois has one of the worst tax climates in the nation. And the level of mismanagement of those revenues is categorically unprecedented.
you said states not cities, Chicago is a city.
NJ has higher income and property tax.
Illinois has higher sales tax but corporate income tax is a much higher priority for corporate offices. My understanding is that this is going to be corporate headquarters and not retail so I doubt sales tax will be a huge priority.
DavePA loves Chicago and is generally very negative on Philly
Personally both Chicago and Philly are two of my favorite cities and could be happy with either (though maybe a little happier if Philly somehow won this)
I need to read up more on the Chicago site, looks promising.
On the rail capping that DavePA referenced, the plan is longer term but with a tenant things can be sped up for this expansion. And it literally abuts the SY development area with the potential for another 15M sq feet. One benefit of the Philly location is that is literally sits on top of one the most integrated rail transit complex's in the US (60 minute rail to NYC, 90 to DC, subways, underground light rail, all the Philly regional rail lines, NJT, Amtrak, 20 minute rail ride to the airport.)
It also has a very interesting location as it basically abuts Univ of Penn and Drexel and sits on the river opposite the parkway and the Philly Art museum. It will include new park and river green space connections. Plus its literally a 60 second walk into Center City, basically imagine the river north river frontage on top of a rail nexus of all rail routes in the city (almost all) the Broad street line requires a connection and 2 minute ride and PATCO HR from jersey requires a transfer at 8th to 30th street
sorry to jump in the Chicago discussion but these (Philly and Chicago) look like two of the better fits for what they are looking, what ultimately drives the decision no one knows
This is the part that is basically shovel ready by 2019 (almost 8M sq ft)
and full build out (another 15M sq ft) of the rail capping that has ample expansion opportunity (SY is the white building below and the colored are the rail capping opportunities for larger build out)
So if Philly doesn't win am rooting for you Chicago
I never bashed Philly. But learned that one thing you NEVER can do in the Philly forums? That is say you are NOT fond of tight row-housing that gives a block a wall-effect and especially .... if homes right to the sidewalks (this is much of Philly) and probably the narrowest street-grid in the Nation.
The Row-home .... NOT my favorite housing and WORST YET ... saying outside of Philly it is the cheapest less desirable old-stock housing in small cities .... Was sacrilegious in their forums. That will give you a scarlet-letter of hate. I never said negative of CC Colonial homes and other quaint revived neighborhoods even as row-homes.
To mention Chicago or comparisons in Philly forums? Is seen as NOT welcome. They are OK with compared to NYC .... that's it. . I was spoiled in my years on Chicago seeing most of the city built with a standard set-back of housing for green-space in fronts and noting Chicago's building its bungalow-belt. While Philly continued row-housing well into the 20th century. Philly is "King" of the Row-home and that does make its uniqueness a blessing to some or most? But some ..... less so.
I've seen examples of infill in Philly where some green-space was in front in a block where old-stock housing does not (just not very common with Philly infill mostly) so here the developer added it.
But at least more trees are added in gentrification and as a city planting more (I note later 20th century row-homes in Philly added frontage too). Just much was built ..... homes to the curb. That is opposite of Chicago's choice off main streets.
I never denied the "Schuylkill Yards" planned over "rail-beds" as not great or not a possible good choice for Amazon. Its shovel ready in already zoned with new buildings planned. Those mentioning Chicago's "Former Post Office" building ..... a Huge Art-Deco building that was the main mail-order facility for Sears and Montgomery Ward and having vaulted 18" entry corridors and wide floor options?
Is CURRENTLY already being rehabbed with new windows already being installed. It being Spring 2019-ready offers the initial needs of Amazon with prospects to add a skyscraper next door or surrounding area. Few NIMBY'S obstacles would stand in the way nearby as it is right on the edge of Chicago's Loop a stones through to the Willis (Sears Tower).
I would think my reply is no more out of place then talking "Schuylkill Yards" here. I'm fine with Amazon helping either city expand .... or any Northern city over the Sunbelt. I surely would applaud for a Cleveland, Detroit or Pittsburgh choice too.
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Was sacrilegious in their forums. That will give you a scarlet-letter of hate. I never said negative of CC Colonial homes and other quaint revived neighborhoods even as row-homes.
