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Old 06-28-2010, 05:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

What lies between the first 483 years and the last 7 years of the 490 years is the church-age.



Thanks for reinforcing my point that end timers have to play mathematical gymnastics and stop counting the years of a prophecy for 2000 years or so before beginning to count the last 7 years when it becomes desirable for them.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:05 AM
 
21,941 posts, read 16,738,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Thanks for reinforcing my point that end timers have to play mathematical gymnastics and stop counting the years of a prophecy for 2000 years or so before beginning to count the last 7 years when it becomes desirable for them.


Go back and read the post again, with your eyes and your mind open. Try to comprehend what I said. And what I am about to say later in this reply.The last seven years of the prophecy have not taken place yet. They are to take place immediately before the return of Christ. The events of those last seven years are the events of the Tribulation in which great judgments are to come upon the earth. During the last seven years of the prophecy, the majority of the earth's population is to be destroyed. At the conclusion of those seven years, Jesus Christ is to return and rescue Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist and establish His Millennial kingdom.

Do this. Consider what I said about the fact that Jesus was crucified after the first 483 years of the prophecy had been fulfilled. Then consider the fact that the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem, which are mentioned in the prophecy, took place in 70 A.D., which was some 37 years after the death of Christ. Those two events-the death of Christ, and the destruction of Jerusalem were 37 years apart, they can not be squeezed into the last seven years of the prophecy. 37 years can not fit into 7 years. That means that the death of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem took place after the first 483 years, and before the beginning of the last 7 years of the prophecy. It is not uncommon for a given prophecy to take both a near term view and a long term view, with a period of time in between.

As an example of what I mean, compare the prophecy of Isaiah 61, which covers the entire chapter of 11 verses; with Jesus' fulfillment of only verse 1 and the first part of verse 2 of that prophecy at His first Advent, while the remainder of the prophecy is to be fulfilled at His second coming. In between, is the entire Church-age which was kept hidden in the Old Testament. To put it another way, the entire dispensation of the church, the time in which we are now living, takes place between Isa 61:2a and Isa 61:2b. Again, between the first and second half of Isa 61:2, the entire church-age unfolds with absolutely no indication given that there would be more than two thousand years in between. Luke 4:18 records the fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2a.


Isa. 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; [2] To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD, (The entire Church-age fits in right here), [The rest of this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord]--> and the day of vengence of our God; To comfort all who mourn,...(and on to the end of the chapter).

Now Luke 4:18 leading into it with verse 17. 'And the booK of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, [18] ''THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE DOWNTRODDEN, [19] TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''

At that point Jesus stopped reading because He had just fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up through Isa 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ.

Again, my point in presenting all this is to show that a given prophecy may have a great deal of time in between its complete fulfillment. And so it is with the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27. Between the first 483 years of the prophecy and the last 7 years, is the entire Church-age. The last seven years of the prophecy are to be fulfilled after the church has been taken off the earth at the rapture. The last seven years of the 490 years is the Tribulation.

There is nothing complicated about this. Simply discard the amillennial thinking and realize that the proper understanding is that of pre-millennialism. There is nothing allegorical about the prophecy. Its fulfillment is literal and its total fulfillment is yet future.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,681,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Go back and read the post again, with your eyes and your mind open. Try to comprehend what I said. And what I am about to say later in this reply.The last seven years of the prophecy have not taken place yet. They are to take place immediately before the return of Christ. The events of those last seven years are the events of the Tribulation in which great judgments are to come upon the earth. During the last seven years of the prophecy, the majority of the earth's population is to be destroyed. At the conclusion of those seven years, Jesus Christ is to return and rescue Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist and establish His Millennial kingdom.

Do this. Consider what I said about the fact that Jesus was crucified after the first 483 years of the prophecy had been fulfilled. Then consider the fact that the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem, which are mentioned in the prophecy, took place in 70 A.D., which was some 37 years after the death of Christ. Those two events-the death of Christ, and the destruction of Jerusalem were 37 years apart, they can not be squeezed into the last seven years of the prophecy. 37 years can not fit into 7 years. That means that the death of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem took place after the first 483 years, and before the beginning of the last 7 years of the prophecy. It is not uncommon for a given prophecy to take both a near term view and a long term view, with a period of time in between.

As an example of what I mean, compare the prophecy of Isaiah 61, which covers the entire chapter of 11 verses; with Jesus' fulfillment of only verse 1 and the first part of verse 2 of that prophecy at His first Advent, while the remainder of the prophecy is to be fulfilled at His second coming. In between, is the entire Church-age which was kept hidden in the Old Testament. To put it another way, the entire dispensation of the church, the time in which we are now living, takes place between Isa 61:2a and Isa 61:2b. Again, between the first and second half of Isa 61:2, the entire church-age unfolds with absolutely no indication given that there would be more than two thousand years in between. Luke 4:18 records the fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2a.


Isa. 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; [2] To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD, (The entire Church-age fits in right here), [The rest of this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord]--> and the day of vengence of our God; To comfort all who mourn,...(and on to the end of the chapter).

Now Luke 4:18 leading into it with verse 17. 'And the booK of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, [18] ''THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE DOWNTRODDEN, [19] TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''

At that point Jesus stopped reading because He had just fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up through Isa 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ.

Again, my point in presenting all this is to show that a given prophecy may have a great deal of time in between its complete fulfillment. And so it is with the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27. Between the first 483 years of the prophecy and the last 7 years, is the entire Church-age. The last seven years of the prophecy are to be fulfilled after the church has been taken off the earth at the rapture. The last seven years of the 490 years is the Tribulation.

There is nothing complicated about this. Simply discard the amillennial thinking and realize that the proper understanding is that of pre-millennialism. There is nothing allegorical about the prophecy. Its fulfillment is literal and its total fulfillment is yet future.
Are you using the prophetic calendar of 360 days or reality, 365.25 days per year to calculate this?

I just love it when they say that the ancients knew there were 5 days missing so they threw in 5 extra days periodically. What hogwash is that!

It's like a mathematics circus.

And which decree are you counting from?
1. The decree from Cyrus in 539 BC. (see Ezra 1:1-4)
2. The decree from Darius in 519 BC. (see Ezra 5:3-7)
3. The decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16)
4. The decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8)

Seems to me that 3 of them don't fit your timeline. You say Christ's death and the destruction took place AFTER the 483 year period yet isn't the death of Christ supposed to be within that period (messiah cut off)...??

Something is wrong here....
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:17 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,560,739 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Go back and read the post again, with your eyes and your mind open. Try to comprehend what I said. And what I am about to say later in this reply.The last seven years of the prophecy have not taken place yet. They are to take place immediately before the return of Christ. The events of those last seven years are the events of the Tribulation in which great judgments are to come upon the earth. During the last seven years of the prophecy, the majority of the earth's population is to be destroyed. At the conclusion of those seven years, Jesus Christ is to return and rescue Jerusalem from the armies of the antichrist and establish His Millennial kingdom.

Do this. Consider what I said about the fact that Jesus was crucified after the first 483 years of the prophecy had been fulfilled. Then consider the fact that the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem, which are mentioned in the prophecy, took place in 70 A.D., which was some 37 years after the death of Christ. Those two events-the death of Christ, and the destruction of Jerusalem were 37 years apart, they can not be squeezed into the last seven years of the prophecy. 37 years can not fit into 7 years. That means that the death of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem took place after the first 483 years, and before the beginning of the last 7 years of the prophecy. It is not uncommon for a given prophecy to take both a near term view and a long term view, with a period of time in between.

As an example of what I mean, compare the prophecy of Isaiah 61, which covers the entire chapter of 11 verses; with Jesus' fulfillment of only verse 1 and the first part of verse 2 of that prophecy at His first Advent, while the remainder of the prophecy is to be fulfilled at His second coming. In between, is the entire Church-age which was kept hidden in the Old Testament. To put it another way, the entire dispensation of the church, the time in which we are now living, takes place between Isa 61:2a and Isa 61:2b. Again, between the first and second half of Isa 61:2, the entire church-age unfolds with absolutely no indication given that there would be more than two thousand years in between. Luke 4:18 records the fulfillment of Isaiah 61:1-2a.


Isa. 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, And freedom to prisoners; [2] To proclaim the favorable year of the LORD, (The entire Church-age fits in right here), [The rest of this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the second coming of the Lord]--> and the day of vengence of our God; To comfort all who mourn,...(and on to the end of the chapter).

Now Luke 4:18 leading into it with verse 17. 'And the booK of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, [18] ''THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE DOWNTRODDEN, [19] TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''

At that point Jesus stopped reading because He had just fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up through Isa 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ.

Again, my point in presenting all this is to show that a given prophecy may have a great deal of time in between its complete fulfillment. And so it is with the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27. Between the first 483 years of the prophecy and the last 7 years, is the entire Church-age. The last seven years of the prophecy are to be fulfilled after the church has been taken off the earth at the rapture. The last seven years of the 490 years is the Tribulation.

There is nothing complicated about this. Simply discard the amillennial thinking and realize that the proper understanding is that of pre-millennialism. There is nothing allegorical about the prophecy. Its fulfillment is literal and its total fulfillment is yet future.
The problem with all your examples is that none of them gave precise timetables.This one did.And it gives NO,ZERO,NADA,NO HINT that it is not meant to be taken literally,as in 490 consecutive years.You guys invent that part.Because you need to to maintain your theology.

But like I said,thanks for backing me up that the end times belief maintains that a 2000 yr gap exists between the 483rd year and the 484th year of a prophecy intended to run unbroken.
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Old 06-28-2010, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,767,818 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555
Now Luke 4:18 leading into it with verse 17. 'And the booK of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book, and found the place where it was written, [18] ''THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE DOWNTRODDEN, [19] TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.''

At that point Jesus stopped reading because He had just fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah 61 up through Isa 61:2a. The rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled at the Second Advent of Christ.
------------------------------

Mike, I believe Jesus stopped reading there because he was foreshadowing the fact that when he went to the cross, the day of the vengeance of our God was done with! Have you ever considered that? Granted, the world is brimming full with the wrath of man which does not work righteousness. We are all led like sheep to the slaughter and for his sake killed all the day long - why? Because of the great wrath in men's hearts who have not believed in the love Christ preached to those near and those far off.

Heartsong
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Old 06-28-2010, 11:19 AM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,560,739 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Are you using the prophetic calendar of 360 days or reality, 365.25 days per year to calculate this?

I just love it when they say that the ancients knew there were 5 days missing so they threw in 5 extra days periodically. What hogwash is that!

It's like a mathematics circus.

And which decree are you counting from?
1. The decree from Cyrus in 539 BC. (see Ezra 1:1-4)
2. The decree from Darius in 519 BC. (see Ezra 5:3-7)
3. The decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16)
4. The decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8)

Seems to me that 3 of them don't fit your timeline. You say Christ's death and the destruction took place AFTER the 483 year period yet isn't the death of Christ supposed to be within that period (messiah cut off)...??

Something is wrong here....

You have just hit upon one of the other mathematical gymnastics that the end timers pull to make things work.Here is how it goes.

The prophecy is 483 years until Christ (in their belief).But their starting point is,by their own counting,444 BC.This obviously puts Christ crucified in 39 AD,which is beyond what even the end timers will accept.So they adjust it this way.The Jewish month was 30 days.Therefore 12 months x 30 days = a 360 day year.So,483 years of prophecy x 360 day year= 173880 days.(No,really,this is the way they go about it).173880 days divided by a 365 day solar year then = 476 solar years.444 BS + 476 years then =32-33 AD.

The problem with this is that the Jews knew the solar year was 365 days long.They were also required to have festivals around agriculture in specific months.But as anyone can see,losing 5 days a year soon puts you harvesting in December,and the Bible was clear that festivals had to be held in certain calendar months.Their agricultural calendar did not keep shifting 5 days each year.They fixed this problem by adding a month every 6 years,5 day a year x 6 years = the extra month.So then their calendar stayed correct with the seasons,and their prescribed festivals based around harvests stayed within the months ordered in the Bible.So,we have to add those months into the prophecy just like the Jews do,right?NO,NO,NO!!!Since that brings us right back to Christ crucified in 39 AD,NO! So how do we avoid adding these in when the Jews always did?Well,by creating something called ...TA DA...THE PROPHETIC YEAR.That's right folks,a year,conveniently,of only 360 days.And VOILA,now everything works.See how easy it is if you ignore logic and Jewish history?

You didn't think a little problem like years not working out right would stop an end timer determined to believe,did you?
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:19 PM
 
21,941 posts, read 16,738,510 times
Reputation: 8749
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Are you using the prophetic calendar of 360 days or reality, 365.25 days per year to calculate this?

I just love it when they say that the ancients knew there were 5 days missing so they threw in 5 extra days periodically. What hogwash is that!

It's like a mathematics circus.

And which decree are you counting from?
1. The decree from Cyrus in 539 BC. (see Ezra 1:1-4)
2. The decree from Darius in 519 BC. (see Ezra 5:3-7)
3. The decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16)
4. The decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC. (see Nehemiah 2:1-8)

Seems to me that 3 of them don't fit your timeline. You say Christ's death and the destruction took place AFTER the 483 year period yet isn't the death of Christ supposed to be within that period (messiah cut off)...??

Something is wrong here....
The Jews used a 360 day calender.

The prophecy begins with the decree of Artaxerxes in response to Nehemiah's request (Neh 1:3; 2:4-8). It is this final decree that actually relates to the building and restoration of the city itself. The decree was issued either in the last month of 445 B. C. or the first month of 444 B.C. If the beginning of the prophecy, the 490 years, was 445 B.C., then using the 360 calendar, the fulfillment of the 483 years came in 33.A.D.

The Jewish calendar was 12 months of 30 days each. There was a provision of adding a 13th month after enough days had been accumulated. But in Prophecy, that 13 month is not considered. To prove that, simply look at Revelation 11:3 and 12:6, where 3 1/2 years of 360 days is confirmed by the 1260 days. 3.5 X 360 = 1260 days. And in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5, 42 months of 360 days = 1260 days.

The 490 years is divided into 3 groups.

1.) The first 49 years. Daniel 9:25 'there will be seven weeks'. 7 x 7 = 49 years.

2.) The 434 years. Daniel 9:25 'And sixty two weeks'. 7 x 62 = 432 years.

3.) The final seven years. Daniel 9:27. 1 x 7 = 7 years.

The first 49 years were fulfilled. And then the second 434 years were fulfilled. After the fulfillment of the the sixty two weeks Jesus was crucified.

Daniel 9:26 'After the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing. Remember. The first group of seven weeks were fulfilled before the second group of sixty-two weeks. It was after the fulfillment of the second group of sixty-two weeks that the Messiah was cut off. That occurred in 33 A.D using the 360 day calendar.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:22 PM
 
21,941 posts, read 16,738,510 times
Reputation: 8749
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
You have just hit upon one of the other mathematical gymnastics that the end timers pull to make things work.Here is how it goes.

The prophecy is 483 years until Christ (in their belief).But their starting point is,by their own counting,444 BC.This obviously puts Christ crucified in 39 AD,which is beyond what even the end timers will accept.So they adjust it this way.The Jewish month was 30 days.Therefore 12 months x 30 days = a 360 day year.So,483 years of prophecy x 360 day year= 173880 days.(No,really,this is the way they go about it).173880 days divided by a 365 day solar year then = 476 solar years.444 BS + 476 years then =32-33 AD.

The problem with this is that the Jews knew the solar year was 365 days long.They were also required to have festivals around agriculture in specific months.But as anyone can see,losing 5 days a year soon puts you harvesting in December,and the Bible was clear that festivals had to be held in certain calendar months.Their agricultural calendar did not keep shifting 5 days each year.They fixed this problem by adding a month every 6 years,5 day a year x 6 years = the extra month.So then their calendar stayed correct with the seasons,and their prescribed festivals based around harvests stayed within the months ordered in the Bible.So,we have to add those months into the prophecy just like the Jews do,right?NO,NO,NO!!!Since that brings us right back to Christ crucified in 39 AD,NO! So how do we avoid adding these in when the Jews always did?Well,by creating something called ...TA DA...THE PROPHETIC YEAR.That's right folks,a year,conveniently,of only 360 days.And VOILA,now everything works.See how easy it is if you ignore logic and Jewish history?

You didn't think a little problem like years not working out right would stop an end timer determined to believe,did you?
Simply refer to post #27.
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Old 06-28-2010, 12:30 PM
 
21,941 posts, read 16,738,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
The problem with all your examples is that none of them gave precise timetables.This one did.And it gives NO,ZERO,NADA,NO HINT that it is not meant to be taken literally,as in 490 consecutive years.You guys invent that part.Because you need to to maintain your theology.

But like I said,thanks for backing me up that the end times belief maintains that a 2000 yr gap exists between the 483rd year and the 484th year of a prophecy intended to run unbroken.
Simply refer to post #27. You have no leg to stand on.

And readers may refer to posts #18, 22, and 27.

The final seven years of the 490 years takes place after the rapture of the Church. I have provided a timeline in post 27 and have shown that the 360 day calendar was used in the prophecies. Several passages in Revelation, which I have provided, prove that.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:08 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,560,739 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Simply refer to post #27. You have no leg to stand on.

And readers may refer to posts #18, 22, and 27.

The final seven years of the 490 years takes place after the rapture of the Church. I have provided a timeline in post 27 and have shown that the 360 day calendar was used in the prophecies. Several passages in Revelation, which I have provided, prove that.
Please spare me your silly@ss claim of no leg to stand on.I was taught what you believe.Knew it in depth.So I don't need a rehashing of what I've known for 30 years from you.I grew out of such childishness.If you have not,then that is your issue to deal with.The Bible does not give permission to stick a 2000 year gap in the prophecy.Simple as that.Your nonsense won't change that any.That you buy into such silliness is merely due to trying to filter facts through your theology.

In short,you've proven nothing but that you are gullible enough to believe what an uneducated preacher came up with.Feel free to.But your lame interpretation is not something I feel the need to waste any more time on.If folks out there are silly enough to buy the counting of years suddenly stopping for 2000 yrs (TWO THOUSAND YEARS!) in the middle of the prophecy,and then the goofy method of counting years to make it work out and not be 6-7 years too far if the normal counting method the Jews (you know,the ones who actually made the prophecy)used was used,let them have at it.You are,I am sure, well aware that Jewish calendar does not get off by 5 days every year for 2500 years,and any honest counting would include days and months just as the Jews count,but yet it does not bother you to ignore this fact when you wish to make your belief work out.This alone says all that is needed.

The Jewish history timeline goes back what,4500 years or so?And yet we are to believe that a prophecy given in ancient Jewish history that told them 490 years from 444 BC is STILL waiting to be fulfilled?That a gap of 2000 years and counting,when the history of the Jewish nation is not much more than twice that amount of time,makes sense?LOL!

Last edited by lifertexan; 06-28-2010 at 03:23 PM..
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