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I was wondering when you'd appear...nice to hear from you.
Jesus used the word "never" as in never will be forgiven. That "never" overrides the teachings of men of "all" as in all inclusive.
No thanks Ilene, that message is the forbidden fruit......Eve's eyes were opened also
Hey Ilene "Did God really say......" Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Mark 3:29
But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit willneverbe forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Galatians 4:30
But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son willnevershare in the inheritance with the free woman's son."
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Again, this is your bias speaking again. Let me explain how I see these verses.
I fully believe some (many) will not be reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.
I fully believe some blaspheme the Holy Spirit and they are not pardoned for the eon (that is the correct translation). But after that they will be forgiven.
I fully believe some do not share in the inheritance - that is they will not be Kings and Priests and Judges reigning with Christ.
I fully believe that some do not have eonian life now and God's wrath remains on them.
But none of this means that people MUST be burning in hell forever.
It is about understanding what eonian life is and what the purpose for reigning in Christ's Kingdom is.
Christ's Kingdom starts small like a tiny mustard seed, but grows into a giant tree so that all the birds can come and rest.
Christ's Kingdom is like a tiny piece of yeast that eventually works through ALL the dough.
Not everyone is called to reign in Christ's Kingdom. Only the few will reign with Christ.
No murderers or adulterers or others will enter Christ's Kingdom. They will all be converted first.
See, the whole purpose for the reign of Christ is to bring everyone else into God's fold. Each in their own order, so ultimately God will be all in all.
Why do you think God's elect are called to be PRIESTS and MINISTERS? Who are they going to be preaching and ministering too? They don't need to preach and minister themselves, they already follow Christ! No. They will be instrumental in bringing EVERYONE ELSE to Christ.
Read this.
Eph 1:
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
This is from the NLT. Read all of Ephesians 1. But this section explains what is happening. This is the mystery of God's plan. He is bringing everything together under the authority of Christ. But there is an inheritance - not everyone receives it - only those who have been chosen. The inheritance is to help bring everyone together under Christ! The inheritance is to be a King, Judge, Priest, and Minister. To minister to all the nations - to bring them under Christ! It will happen because every knee will bow and every tongue swear allegiance in the end. There will be great joy among all families. That is the inheritance of Abraham promised way back in Genesis:
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
All the families of the earth will be blessed when they are finally brought under the authority of Christ. This is the good news my friend. But few understand it because it is a mystery - even though it is spelled out right there in Ephesians 1.
And further proof that the word aionios does not mean eternal or everlasting are these verses ...
Rom 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past(Chronos aionios)
2Ti 1:9
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began(pro chronos aionios)
Tts 1:2
in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began(pro chronos aionios)
Try translating the word aionios as eternal or everlasting in the phrase "pro chronos aionios".
Before time everlasting/eternal?
And to compound the error of the translation of aionios as eternal and everlasting, the variations of the words "Aionios" and "Chronos" in the above verses are the plural variations of those words as well. If aionios means eternal or everlasting, then how can it have a plural variation?
"Before times everlastings" or "before times eternals?"
It simply does not make sense ...
Peace ...
Yes its so obvious.
Guys, these are the basic facts. FACTS! These are facts of scripture that no one can dispute. Its like me saying 2+2=4 and you saying "no that's wrong you are biased"!!! I mean Ironmaw has just proven that aionios cannot mean everlasting. How can you dispute it?
Just take the time to look it up for yourselves. Compare the KJV with a Concordant Literal and compare them both with the Greek. Aionios CANNOT mean "everlasting".
At the very least, you should realize the translation of "everlasting" is very suspect. And this throws suspicion on the whole concept of everlasting torture. So why would you continue to hope that everlasting torture is true? It is such a strange thing to hope and defend the everlasting torment of the majority of mankind, instead of reading and studying and having faith and hope that God will have all men to be saved.
It would desire to have absolute control over its subjects to keep them in the bondage of fear and hatred for God
It would desire to have a place to have its reign where it can keep its subjects in pain and misery for eternity.
The preaching of mainstream "Christianity" concerning a doctrine of "Hell" gives Sin EXACTLY what it desires.
I'm thankful that God's HATRED is LOVE also and even in His Love, His correction prevails.
So obviously true, it slaps one right across the face. Wake up, thou who sleepest! Let Christ arise in your hearts and give thee light. If the light that is in you is darkness, how GREAT is that darkness! I wait for the day when people everywhere stop blaspheming God's name and maligning his character! - Heartsong
Counter argument for the definition of the word aionios and its variations ...
"Proskaira" in contrast with "aionios" does not prove that "aionios" necessarily means eternal, to the contrary, "aionios" means literally "pertaining to the age/ages", as it is the adjective form of "aion" just as "eonian" is the adjective form of the English term "eon" or "age". "Aionios" applies to "aion" as "yearly" applies to "year" or as "Hourly" applies to "hour".
The verse above which mike quotes can and i believe should be translated as ...
"we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during". (YLT)
2 Corinthians 4:18 is not comparing visible things that are "for a season" with things that are "eternal", it is comparing those things which we see now which are "temporary" or "for a season" with the things which are not yet seen but are to come and will be seen in the kingdom age. The things to come which are not yet seen are "eonian", or apply to the age to come when Christ will subject all things to himself.
That is to say, the things which Paul refers to that are not yet seen apply to the kingdom age which is to come, they "Pertain to the age" which is to come, and will replace those things that are now seen in this age.
This is further made evident in the way in which the Septuagint translates the Hebrew term Olam, which means literally "beyond the horizon" or "unseen", with the Greek term "aionios". A time that is so far in the future or in the past that it is unknowable(without divine revelation) at present.
Peace ...
I can't give you enough reputation for this post. Actual reference to the original scripture and correct translations.
That being said, the MT is regarded by conventional Judaism as the authoritive text, but I'm sure you already knew that, lol.
Again, this is your bias speaking again. Let me explain how I see these verses.
I fully believe some (many) will not be reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.
I fully believe some blaspheme the Holy Spirit and they are not pardoned for the eon (that is the correct translation). But after that they will be forgiven.
I fully believe some do not share in the inheritance - that is they will not be Kings and Priests and Judges reigning with Christ.
I fully believe that some do not have eonian life now and God's wrath remains on them.
But none of this means that people MUST be burning in hell forever.
It is about understanding what eonian life is and what the purpose for reigning in Christ's Kingdom is.
Christ's Kingdom starts small like a tiny mustard seed, but grows into a giant tree so that all the birds can come and rest.
Christ's Kingdom is like a tiny piece of yeast that eventually works through ALL the dough.
Not everyone is called to reign in Christ's Kingdom. Only the few will reign with Christ.
No murderers or adulterers or others will enter Christ's Kingdom. They will all be converted first.
See, the whole purpose for the reign of Christ is to bring everyone else into God's fold. Each in their own order, so ultimately God will be all in all.
Why do you think God's elect are called to be PRIESTS and MINISTERS? Who are they going to be preaching and ministering too? They don't need to preach and minister themselves, they already follow Christ! No. They will be instrumental in bringing EVERYONE ELSE to Christ.
Read this.
Eph 1:
9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure. 10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
This is from the NLT. Read all of Ephesians 1. But this section explains what is happening. This is the mystery of God's plan. He is bringing everything together under the authority of Christ. But there is an inheritance - not everyone receives it - only those who have been chosen. The inheritance is to help bring everyone together under Christ! The inheritance is to be a King, Judge, Priest, and Minister. To minister to all the nations - to bring them under Christ! It will happen because every knee will bow and every tongue swear allegiance in the end. There will be great joy among all families. That is the inheritance of Abraham promised way back in Genesis:
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
All the families of the earth will be blessed when they are finally brought under the authority of Christ. This is the good news my friend. But few understand it because it is a mystery - even though it is spelled out right there in Ephesians 1.
Thanks legoman! What an excellent post. Hope you don't mind if I use it in the future. Summed up so that even a caveman can understand it.
To the contrary. The metaphor is intended to express the concept that one who is in a debtors prison is unable to pay off his debt. That is why Jesus had to pay the penalty for man. But anyone who rejects Christ refuses Jesus' substitutionary payment on their behalf and therefore remains under a debt that they can never pay. Man's righteousness can never pay off the debt. By refusing to receive Christ as Savior, the unbeliever stands on his relative human righteousness which is the basis for his eternal condemnation to the lake of fire. God's perfect and absolute righteousness can NEVER have anything to do with man's relative human rightousness.
Rejection of Christ cannot be forgiven, as receiving Christ as Savior is the condition for eternal salvation.
John 3:36 'He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
"anyone who rejects Christ refuses Jesus' substitutionary payment on their behalf and therefore remains under a debt that they can never pay. Man's righteousness can never pay off the debt."
"anyone who rejects Christ refuses Jesus' substitutionary payment on their behalf and therefore remains under a debt that they can never pay. Man's righteousness can never pay off the debt."
Great post Ironmaw!!!! Thanks! I'd give you a rep if I could....thanks for answering TwinSpin's post to me, I didn't see it until now. You did a much better job than I could have and I really appreciate it. well TS, you have your answer and I hope you paid attention.
Yes, I read it. But still it doesn't matter. When the foundation is flawed, it doesn't matter how well the rest of the building is. The foundational position of the usage of "all" as to imply "all inclusive" is incorrect.
Though Jesus paid for all sins doesn't negate the teaching that many will never reap the benefit of it. It's not that Jesus didn't accomplish it, it's that many don't believe that he did. That is the TOS (Terms of Salvation) that God has set.
You and like others, disagree with the TOS that God has set forth. That disagreement is not God's fault or responsibility to for him to change nor do I have to constantly prove or defend. The subject of hell isn't to scare anybody into heaven....if that's what you were doing then you wrong then. The subject of hell is to warn of the consequences of unbelief. Just like what Noah did.
What you have done is to to listen to people that under estimate the seriousness of sin and unbelief that God has. That message is not from God.
Here is your answer Ilene....return back to the truth.
Hell; it has a flame and it's everlasting
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Here is one little "detail" about "hell" from the KJV bible:
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Here is another detail of hell:
Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
So you can depart from hell? And God is in hell? Me thinks the traditional understand of hell as a place of never-ending torment is not right. In fact you will never find the word "hell" described as "eternal" in any bible. "Hell" AKA sheol/hades & death is destroyed by Christ. It has no victory.
Did you know the word "hell" is actually translated from four different words (sheol, hades, tartarus, gehenna), three which have completely different meanings? That is mistranslation at best, and dishonest scholarship or worse.
This teaching is grasping for straws. The truth is pushed aside to conform to the feelings of men. In spite of these teachings of men, God's truth is marching on -- and it will stand until the end.
Do we? .... Jesus is our 100% subsitute; offering free forgiveness without proof of being worthy of that forgiveness, being perfect instead of becoming perfect?
I do hope that .... I really don't want to see you speechless when faced before Heavenly Father counting on "doing all you can do and God does the rest", yet God rejects it because he demands 100% perfection. The TOS (terms of Salvation) is by faith apart from observing the law.
That is why I asked about if you read that article in the Mormon times.
Galations 3, Romans 4 and Jesus' answer to "what must I do to be save" cures the stress of perfection demands.
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