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thrillobyte you need to know that the lake of fire is not a literal fire. It represents the cleansing power of God. After our physical death, those who have not judged themselves(for if we judge ourselves,we shall not be judged. 1 Corinthians 11:31) and came up in the resurrection of Christ's Elect will face the Lake of fire, which is the second death.
Now if the first death is a physical death it seems to follow the second death will be a spiritual death. (First the physical then the spiritual) The death of your carnal mature and the cleansing of your spirit. The lake of fire is where all the doss and impurities will be removed from you and you will learn righteousness. It is not a literal fire. Remember all the signs in the Book of Revelations are metaphors.
Also people seem to forget that "judgment" is not just go to heaven or go to hell. God's judgments are the things he uses to chastise and correct his children till they become like him.
I have read many who say God will not force anyone to choose Christ and they are right he will not, but what will happen is that when confronted with his judgments, and he knows exactly what to use to reach you because he knows your heart , you will choose Jesus and God because the other choices will be to painful to bear. God knows exactly what and where to bring pressure on you so the choice will be yours but really there is no other choice you could make,but It will be your choice. And in that moment you will change and that carnal part of you will die.
thrillobyte you need to know that the lake of fire is not a literal fire. It represents the cleansing power of God. After our physical death, those who have not judged themselves(for if we judge ourselves,we shall not be judged. 1 Corinthians 11:31) and came up in the resurrection of Christ's Elect will face the Lake of fire, which is the second death.
Now if the first death is a physical death it seems to follow the second death will be a spiritual death. (First the physical then the spiritual) The death of your carnal mature and the cleansing of your spirit. The lake of fire is where all the doss and impurities will be removed from you and you will learn righteousness. It is not a literal fire. Remember all the signs in the Book of Revelations are metaphors.
Also people seem to forget that "judgment" is not just go to heaven or go to hell. God's judgments are the things he uses to chastise and correct his children till they become like him.
I have read many who say God will not force anyone to choose Christ and they are right he will not, but what will happen is that when confronted with his judgments, and he knows exactly what to use to reach you because he knows your heart , you will choose Jesus and God because the other choices will be to painful to bear. God knows exactly what and where to bring pressure on you so the choice will be yours but really there is no other choice you could make,but It will be your choice. And in that moment you will change and that carnal part of you will die.
Because it is simple. We walk by faith, not by sight.
The Spirit has led me here, and there, to show me the ultimate magnificance of the Glory of the Father and the ultimate plan for mankind.
Like Thrill said. ALL 3 doctrines are supported by scriptures.
Well, I look at it like a maturity level. How much we mature, is where we are in the current moment.
It is precisely about spiritual maturity, Hot . . . and the one that resonates most strongly with our Spirit does reflect the level we each have achieved to date. There is a funny thing about maturity when seen from the inside though, Hot. I remember at 18 I was convinced I was fully mature and capable . . . I somehow became more so around 30 though . . . and even more so during subsequent periods of my life. It is the same with our sense of spiritual maturity as well. So . . . who are the"spiritual teenagers," the "spiritual 30 year olds," etc.??? The more carnal we are the more the negative human emotions of our animal natures resonate within us as "natural" and reasonable for God to possess. The more spiritual we are the less acceptable they are as explanations for God's emotions.
How does one come to the conclusion that the lake of fire, which produces the second death, be considered God's cleansing, and making pure the one that goes into the lake of fire in the first place? I see nothing regarding the "lake of fire" that has a purified result coming from the second death.
Can someone provide a conservative hermeneutic to support such a conclusion?
sciotamiks: I arrive at that conclution by thing I read in the Bible. John the Baptist said that he baptized with water but one will come which will baptized you with fire, baptizim is ritual cleansing.
The Bible also says
[SIZE=3]Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3][/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Also it says
[SIZE=5]For our God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=5][/SIZE]
[SIZE=5]also
[SIZE=3]"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).[/SIZE]
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
sciotamiks: I arrive at that conclution by thing I read in the Bible. John the Baptist said that he baptized with water but one will come which will baptized you with fire, baptizim is ritual cleansing.
The Bible also says Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; andthe fire shall try every man’s workof what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:13-15).
This talks about the rewards of a believer. His WORKS will be tested, and he/she will be rewarded accordignly. If the works are not much to speak of, the person is still saved, but without rewards. Of course the eternal life in presence of the Lord is the greatest reward in itself. Those who die in their win will not experience this process, because they will face great white throne judgment where their sins will be judged.
Revelation 21 the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
This talks about the rewards of a believer. His WORKS will be tested, and he/she will be rewarded accordignly. If the works are not much to speak of, the person is still saved, but without rewards. Of course the eternal life in presence of the Lord is the greatest reward in itself. Those who die in their win will not experience this process, because they will face great white throne judgment where their sins will be judged.
Revelation 21 the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Bi it talks about every person, not just the believers. That is your interpolation into the scriptures.
The language is the same used in revelation of the judgment of the dead for their works.
He is absolutely right, you simply refuse to accept it ...
Even if that was talking only about believers, then those who have no good works are the wicked servants, whom Christ tells us have the same fate as unbelievers ...
Luk 12:46
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. (i.e. in the lake of fire)
Even believers will be baptized by the fire of Gods judgment(lake of fire), but will not be hurt of it.
You are simply confused and deceived by your hope and misplaced faith in the idea that most humans should suffer for ever ...
Bi it talks about every person, not just the believers. That is your interpolation into the scriptures.
The language is the same used in revelation of the judgment of the dead for their works.
He is absolutely right, you simply refuse to accept it ...
Even if that was talking only about believers, then those who have no good works are the wicked servants, whom Christ tells us have the same fate as unbelievers ...
Luk 12:46
The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. (i.e. in the lake of fire)
Even believers will be baptized by the fire of Gods judgment(lake of fire), but will not be hurt of it.
You are simply confused and deceived by your hope and misplaced faith in the idea that most humans should suffer for ever ...
Is there a need for insults? What is it with universalists and never ending insults?
The chapter talks about believers and their works, and a believer without works is saved. It is written with such clarity that there is no room for misunderstanding it. The wicked servant was not a believer.
Finn; It doesn't say every believer ,it says every man. will be saved by fire. Again fire is a metaphor and is not literal. The lake of fire is a metaphor and not literal. and you are right, all timid, liars, unbelievers, idoltors, and sexually immoral will be in the Lake of Fire. It is there that all these things will be "burned" out of them by God's judgements.
One more thought why do you think it says fire and sulfer(brimstone)? Sulfer doesn't make fire hotter or more painful, but sulfer is a purifing agent and is used to purify. This too is a metaphor that the fire will burn out the inpurities and the sulfer will purify. It is saying God's judgement will save all his children, which is all mankind but it will be a long and painful journey.
Because the Holy Spirit has us, right where He wants us, at this VERY MOMENT.
He leads us believers, and we follow.
Unless of course, they are unbelievers.
Then it is Satan who has them, right where he wants them.
The church divided cannot stand. That's why the sick stay sick, the oppressed are still in darkness and divison reigns.
I still wonder why God allowed His name to be so maligned. Ironic it's the 'christians' doing it.
His plan is perfect though and I know this will soon change. Just know it. When it does, and we ALL know of His mercy and nothing will be able to stop us.
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