Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Mark 9:35 should be translated as "will". Like other translations translated 1 Tim 2:4 incorrectly it is translated incorrectly if it is doesn't read "will" here.
Again, when Strong's 2309 is indicative and speaks from a trusted source the meaning is assurred. It means CERTAINTY, to say otherwise goes AGAINST all we know about Greek grammar. This has already been shown. I gave a link before the such that the Indicative is the mood of CERTAINTY.
Mike, are your suggesting the INDICATIVE mood is not the mood of CERTAINTY? I bet you won't. Your probably not even answer that because you know the trap your in.
You are fooling yourself. If you were even halfway honest with yourself, you would never say that Mark 9:35 Should be translated as 'will'.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
As for strong's, I provided the definition for Thelei. In the indicative mood.
I have to wonder if you even bothered to read the post. For you to come back and say what you did would indicate that you did not.
You are fooling yourself. If you were even halfway honest with yourself, you would never say that Mark 9:35 Should be translated as 'will'.
Mark 9:35 'And sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, ''If anyone wants - desires - Thelei - Present Active Indicative) to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.''
As for strong's, I provided the definition for Thelei. In the indicative mood.
I have to wonder if you even bothered to read the post. For you to come back and say what you did would indicate that you did not.
Were talking 1 Tim 2:4. Mike, again are you saying that the indicative mood is not the mood of certainty? - it is a yes or no question unless your unsure of yourself.
Jesus is the Savior of all men only in the sense that by His work on the Cross, He made salvation available to all men. But He is the Savior especially of believers because it is only those who believe in Christ who are ACTUALLY saved.
Jesus made salvation possible through His work at the cross. But salvation is obtained only by those who believe in Him for salvation. It is the difference between potential and reality.
Mike, why do you want to rewrite the scriptures? "Jesus is the savior of all men, but only of those who believe?"
Mike, why do you want to rewrite the scriptures? "Jesus is the savior of all men, but only of those who believe?"
This is almost becoming a joke .... Mike rewriting?
"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he whobelieves that Jesus is the Son of God.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
Mark 16:16 Whoeverbelieves and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life,
John 7:38 Whoeverbelieves in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”
Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone whobelieves in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13:39
Through him everyone whobelieves is justified from everything .....
Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone whobelieves:
1 John 5:10 Anyone whobelieves in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
This is almost becoming a joke .... Mike rewriting?
"Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son."
1 John 5:5
Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he whobelieves that Jesus is the Son of God.
John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
Mark 16:16 Whoeverbelieves and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 5:24
“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life,
John 7:38 Whoeverbelieves in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.”
Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone whobelieves in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13:39
Through him everyone whobelieves is justified from everything .....
Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone whobelieves:
1 John 5:10 Anyone whobelieves in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
Oh, this is no joke, Twin, and you know the responses to those above verses.
So you also believe I Timothy should read, "Jesus is the Savior of all (pas) men, but only of those who believe?"
Oh, this is no joke, Twin, and you know the responses to those above verses.
So you also believe I Timothy should read, "Jesus is the Savior of all (pas) men, but only of those who believe?"
Not one verse says ... "all will believe". You of all people should be able to discern that. Jesus quailifies it as "whoever believes" and then follows with the consequences for not believing. Satan rewrites it the consequence of unbelief to mean UR.
Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar ,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned,
but whoever does not believe stands condemned alreadybecause he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Not one verse says ... "all will believe". You of all people should be able to discern that. Jesus quailifies it as "whoever believes" and then follows with the consequences for not believing. Satan rewrites it the consequence of unbelief to mean UR.
Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar ,
but whoever does not believe will be condemned,
but whoever does not believe stands condemned alreadybecause he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
Do you believe I Timothy 4:10 or not?
In every single usage of this word (malista--especially) in the New Testament it is used in relation to others who are not excluded, but included in the same subject. Let us notice a few of these so that we can be absolutely convinced in our own minds that the "specially believers" can in no possible way exclude the "all men" of the same verse.http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
1 Timothy 4:10 εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ κοπιῶμεν καὶ ἀγωνιζόμεθα, ὅτι ἠλπίκαμεν ἐπὶ θεῷ ζῶντι, ὅς ἐστιν σωτὴρ πάντων ἀνθρώπων μάλιστα (MALISTA) πιστῶν.
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Galatians 6:10 ἄρα οὖν ὡς καιρὸν ἔχωμεν / ἔχομεν, ἐργαζώμεθα τὸ ἀγαθὸν πρὸς πάντας, μάλιστα (MALISTA) δὲ πρὸς τοὺς οἰκείους τῆς πίστεως.
So then, as we have opportunity, let's do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of the faith.
Philippians 4:22 ἀσπάζονται ὑμᾶς πάντες οἱ ἅγιοι, μάλιστα (MALISTA) δὲ οἱ ἐκ τῆς Καίσαρος οἰκίας.
All the saints greet you, especially those who are of Caesar's household.
1 Timothy 5:8 εἰ δέ τις τῶν ἰδίων καὶ μάλιστα(MALISTA) οἰκείων οὐ προνοεῖ, τὴν πίστιν ἤρνηται καὶ ἔστιν ἀπίστου χείρων.
But if anyone doesn't provide for his own, and especially his own household, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.
1 Timothy 5:17 Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι διπλῆς τιμῆς ἀξιούσθωσαν, μάλιστα(MALISTA) οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ.
Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.
2 Timothy 4:13 τὸν φαιλόνην ὃν ἀπέλειπον / ἀπέλιπον ἐν Τρῳάδι παρὰ Κάρπῳ ἐρχόμενος φέρε, καὶ τὰ βιβλία μάλιστα(MALISTA) τὰς μεμβράνας.
Bring the cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus when you come, and the books, especially the parchments.
Titus 1:10 Εἰσὶν γὰρ πολλοὶ [καὶ] ἀνυπότακτοι, ματαιολόγοι καὶ φρεναπάται, μάλιστα (MALISTA) οἱ ἐκ τῆς περιτομῆς,
For there are also many unruly men, vain talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
Last edited by herefornow; 01-02-2011 at 12:27 AM..
I am not the biggest fan of Strong’s, thus, the indicative verb (desires) is not merely a wish, or it would be in the optative mood, as in man "might" be saved. The indicative mood is the only mood conceived of as being actual (and real - a fact, which will occur or take place). While the other three moods (imperative, subjunctive, and optative) – the action is only thought of as possible or having the potential. The indicative verb is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence – which with certainty, will come to pass from the perspective of the writer.
(Emphasis taken from the site previously posted by Mike)
These below would indicate that the indicative verb is more than that of wishful-thinking or a mere desire.
2 Thessalonians 3:10καὶ γὰρ ὅτε ἦμεν πρὸς ὑμᾶς, τοῦτο παρηγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν ὅτι, εἴ τις οὐθέλειἐργάζεσθαι μηδὲἐσθιέτω. For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: "If anyone will [not] work, neither let him eat." Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Revelation 2:21 καὶἔδωκα αὐτῇ χρόνον ἵνα μετανοήσῃ καὶ οὐθέλει μετανοῆσαι ἐκ τῆς πορνείας αὐτῆς. I gave her time to repent, but [she] refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. Verb: Third Person Present Active Indicative Singular
God our Savior,
“who desires all people to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth.”
The truth will be the judge, and all will come to believe.
Were talking 1 Tim 2:4. Mike, again are you saying that the indicative mood is not the mood of certainty? - it is a yes or no question unless your unsure of yourself.
I have told you that the indicative is the mood of certainty. But you don't understand what that means. In the morning I will show you several passages both in the Present Active Indicative, and the Imperfect Active Indicative where the desire though certain, does not get fulfilled.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
