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Old 01-02-2011, 11:07 PM
 
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No . . . I do not believe in such. I am not the least bit humble about either my intellect or my knowledge . . . and my personal encounter with God consciousness gives me a certainty about His nature that is unshakable. But I would never presume to ascribe apostleship to myself or allow anyone else to do so. Those who do and have done so are treading on very dangerous ground. Refinement is unlikely to be a pleasant experience and its duration is apt to depend on the scope of one's "errors." Accepting the responsibility for the spiritual development and understanding ( or lack thereof) of so many other human souls by assuming such an exalted mantle of leadership seems to be "forging an awful lot of Marley's chains" onto one's soul, IMO.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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I'm still trying to figure out why nobody has actually addressed these statements:

It wasn't just the words of the Apostles that would be needed until the Savior's return. It was individuals who held the same authority as the original twelve did and who functioned as they functioned in directing the affairs of the Church. Paul states that without this organizational structure, Christ’s followers would be like children, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who were crafty and who desired to deceive them. He also pointed out that this organizational structure was to remain in place until we all became united in our faith and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Do you really think we're there yet? It was precisely because the Apostles were all killed and that the leadership they provided ceased to exist. Look what the result is: 30,000+ different denominations of Christianity. Just imagine how different things might have been today if there had been twelve Apostles leading Christ’s Church from the very beginning! We could look to them to for guidance and direction, knowing that they were called by the real Head of the Church to lead it in His physical absence.

So why would it not be important for them to continue to exist today? The apostles were the ones who, after Christ's ascent into Heaven, were given the responsibility for maintaining the purity of the doctrines He taught. As long as they were leading the Church, the people could look to them for the correct interpretation of doctrine and not be "carried about with every wind of doctrine." Look at the differences of opinion among the Christians who post here every day. Suppose that each time an apostle had died, a new one was appointed and that Jesus Christ had personally revealed to the remaining eleven who it should be. Just think how it would be today if that had continued to happen throughout the nearly 2000 years since Christ's death. Imagine how much more united Christians would be today than they are.

I mean it just seems so logical to me! I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I seriously don't get why something so straightforward could be interpreted in the variety of ways people are interpreting it. Paul was essentially saying, "This is how Jesus Christ set things up. This is how it's supposed to work until we are unified in our faith and knowledge. Without this organization, we'd be left to try to figure out what's true and what's false on our own." In the early Church, the Apostles were the ones who maintained the integrity of the doctrine that was taught in the various congregations. If the people started to go astray in what they believed, it was up to the Apostles to set things straight. Each individual congregation was not just left on its own, each with its own bishop who read taught the people to the best of his own understanding. The apostles formed the foundation of the Church, but after they died, no one was in a position to fill their role.

Honestly, sometimes I think that if no one knew I was LDS, I could say the exact same things as I do and people would say, "Yeah, that actually makes sense. I think you're onto something."
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:26 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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The age of the Apostles ended with John who died on the island of Patmos. With that also ended the direct revelations from God.

All we need for salvation, knowing the Father's will is found only in the Bible. Any claim to the contrary is just that and should be reguarded as false ......... no matter how many millions of people would be deluded to think otherwise.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The age of the Apostles ended with John who died on the island of Patmos. With that also ended the direct revelations from God.
And we know this how?

Quote:
All we need for salvation, knowing the Father's will is found only in the Bible. Any claim to the contrary is just that and should be reguarded as false ......... no matter how many millions of people would be deluded to think otherwise.
So why are there more than 30,000 different interpretations of what's in the Bible? It's not just a matter of what's in the Bible, but how all of these 30,000 different denominations interpret the exact same words. If there had been apostles from the time of Christ on, we wouldn't be where we are today.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I'm still trying to figure out why nobody has actually addressed these statements:
Honestly, sometimes I think that if no one knew I was LDS, I could say the exact same things as I do and people would say, "Yeah, that actually makes sense. I think you're onto something."
The assertion that anyone has been directly appointed by God as an apostle is what is called an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof or justification. That simply does not exist. So anyone who claims it or assumes the mantle based on it is on dangerous ground, period.

Clearly there are all sorts of these assertions of leadership in the many versions of religion created by humans (not God). All of them are on similarly dangerous ground. But . . . it is their souls that they are shackling with the fate of the souls they claim to "lead" by their "authority". . . whether in truth or error. May God's mercy be on them. I am confident it is . . . but the "refinement" might be somewhat unpleasant with so much responsibility on them. I am concerned enough about my own "errors" . . . I would never want the responsibility for anyone else's soul.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:42 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The assertion that anyone has been directly appointed by God as an apostle is what is called an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary proof or justification. That simply does not exist. So anyone who claims it or assumes the mantle based on it is on dangerous ground, period.
Unless they're telling the truth.

Quote:
Clearly there are all sorts of these assertions of leadership in the many versions of religion created by humans (not God). All of them are on similarly dangerous ground. But . . . it is their souls that they are shackling with the fate of the souls they claim to "lead" by their "authority". . . whether in truth or error. May God's mercy be on them. I am confident it is . . . but the "refinement" might be somewhat unpleasant with so much responsibility on them. I am concerned enough about my own "errors" . . . I would never want the responsibility for anyone else's soul.
I don't believe anybody is going to have to take responsibility for anyone else's soul. I don't think God works that way. Let's put the idea of living apostles aside for a minute. Do you believe that Christ's Apostles were on dangerous ground when they spoke by "authority"? If you had been alive in 40 A.D., do you think you would have listened to them or called their claims "extraordinary" and simply dismissed them? If you would have dismissed the authority of the original twelve, then it would make sense to me that you would not accept the authority of anyone who followed them, but if you believe that they were called and ordained, it doesn't make sense that you would say that anyone they ordained to succeed them wouldn't have had the same authority they did.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I would never presume to ascribe apostleship to myself or allow anyone else to do so.
Do you believe the original apostles ascribed their callings to themselves?
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Unless they're telling the truth.
That is the "kicker" . . . isn't it. Do you feel lucky?
Quote:
I don't believe anybody is going to have to take responsibility for anyone else's soul.
Sorry . . . teachers are explicitly told they have a greater burden to bear.
Quote:
I don't think God works that way. Let's put the idea of living apostles aside for a minute. Do you believe that Christ's Apostles were on dangerous ground when they spoke by "authority"? If you had been alive in 40 A.D., do you think you would have listened to them or called their claims "extraordinary" and simply dismissed them? If you would have dismissed the authority of the original twelve, then it would make sense to me that you would not accept the authority of anyone who followed them, but if you believe that they were called and ordained, it doesn't make sense that you would say that anyone they ordained to succeed them wouldn't have had the same authority they did.
If you have anyone today who has been appointed by Christ Himself . . . I would accept his authority . . . If I were convinced that was so. But as soon as what he said departed from what God has "written in my heart" and revealed to me . . . that authority would evaporate. The Holy Spirit within guiding me to what God has "written in our hearts" is the supreme authority for me, period . . . as it should be for everyone who sincerely seeks the truth within . . . not the rationalizations in the "precepts and doctrines of men."
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:04 AM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,419,176 times
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The Holy Spirit within guiding me to what God has "written in our hearts" is the supreme authority for me, period . . . as it should be for everyone who sincerely seeks the truth within . . . not the rationalizations in the "precepts and doctrines of men."
And what is written in our hearts?

~Love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself...this do and you shall live. Luke 10:27-28
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ans57 View Post
And what is written in our hearts?

~Love God and love your neighbor as you love yourself...this do and you shall live. Luke 10:27-28
Thanks Ans . . . I forget that not everyone is familiar with "love God and each other." But I just assume if they sincerely seek the answer within . . . that is what they will find there.
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