Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is a portion of my post from #258 I think.... Nothing physical???
James 2: 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Pay attention to verse 15-17.
Nothing physical?
Some have asked me to list examples of works. Here ya go.
Some have asked me to define faith. As a member of the church of Christ, I'm apt to go straight to the scripture once more,
Hebrews 11:1---New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
I believe one of the misunderstandings is about the "nature" of the spiritual while residing in a physical world.
Let me try to put into traditional terms, An atheist and a born again Christian can both feed the hungry, according to traditional beliefs the act of feeding the hungry by the atheist did not save. The act of feeding the hungry can be said to be a work for the Christian.
What people should realize is the specific act of feeding the hungry has inherantly nothing to do with salvation or justification in the first place.
What the passage is illustrating is that it is impossible to have a true faith in God and something NOT occur in the physical realm, but none of those physical things has anything to do with entering a state of spirituality.
Those physical things are only a result of entering the spiritual. If the act of works causes someone to enter the spiritual, then perhaps the Atheist who does the same work a Christian does it not what we are sometimes taught.
So, acknowledging his sinfulness is counted as 'works', and that saved him?
He did a lot more than aknowledge his sinfulness. Read the account again. His showing his faith resulted in Jesus'pronouncement that the thief would be with Him in paradise that day.
You still haven't answered my question. Do you include the works of God (ordained by Him) in Paul's "apart from works?"
I believe one of the misunderstandings is about the "nature" of the spiritual while residing in a physical world.
Let me try to put into traditional terms, An atheist and a born again Christian can both feed the hungry, according to traditional beliefs the act of feeding the hungry by the atheist did not save. The act of feeding the hungry can be said to be a work for the Christian.
What people should realize is the specific act of feeding the hungry has inherantly nothing to do with salvation or justification in the first place.
What the passage is illustrating is that it is impossible to have a true faith in God and something NOT occur in the physical realm, but none of those physical things has anything to do with entering a state of spirituality.
Those physical things are only a result of entering the spiritual. If the act of works causes someone to enter the spiritual, then perhaps the Atheist who does the same work a Christian does it not what we are sometimes taught.
First off, what passage are you referencing?
Phaze, the argument is not about works done after initial salvation. It's not about christian good works. It is works PRIOR to salvation. In every instance we read where people DID SOMETHING before salvation. They obeyed God or in whatever way was appropriate under the circumstances, they manifested their faith BEFORE they were saved/justified/forgiven. You can say works play no role in initial salvation, but the Biblical examples tell a different story.
I'm thinking that man looks at outward appearances and God looks at our hearts.
For the record, if someone was to profess their newfound faith, yet deny God's command to be baptized, that person is not serious in their belief - faith in God.
But as always, God is the judge. We humans do not hold the measuring rod of someone's faith, only God. He is the only one who can see our hearts.
He did a lot more than aknowledge his sinfulness. Read the account again. His showing his faith resulted in Jesus'pronouncement that the thief would be with Him in paradise that day.
I don't see any of it as "works" but, I guess it is just a matter of opinon. You HAVE TO call it works, because you know he didn't do anything else, and you argue no one can be saved without works.
Quote:
You still haven't answered my question. Do you include the works of God (ordained by Him) in Paul's "apart from works?"
I have not answered, because I don't know what you are asking.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 10-14-2011 at 01:36 PM..
Phaze, the argument is not about works done after initial salvation. It's not about christian good works. It is works PRIOR to salvation. In every instance we read where people DID SOMETHING before salvation. They obeyed God or in whatever way was appropriate under the circumstances, they manifested their faith BEFORE they were saved/justified/forgiven. You can say works play no role in initial salvation, but the Biblical examples tell a different story.
Katie
Read back and reply to my post to you about baptism first. This reply to another poster is about a physical vs spiritual issue concerning works in general.
Exercising an inordinent amount of patience, because i love God.
There's one thing.
Are you wanting me to get a head start on giving my account? And is that the only response to my post I'm gonna get?
Well considering you along with Katie are pressing hard on works, I think it is only right that you should at least be specific about the works EVIDENT in your own life. Who is this inordinate amount of patience EVIDENT to ?.
Well considering you along with Katie are pressing hard on works, I think it is only right that you should at least be specific about the works EVIDENT in your own life. Who is this inordinate amount of patience EVIDENT to ?.
It is evident to God. He knows my heart. Hope that's good enough for you. If it's not, you can take it up with God.
I not pressing works. I'm quoting the bible and I can only assume that your silence in regard to it is because you don't want to discuss it. Am I right?
[quote=Finn_Jarber;21284755]They? Well, I don't know who 'they' are, but personally I take the whole NT into account, but don't expect me to copy/paste the whole thing here.[/]
As do I.
No reason to cut and paste. Wouldn't change anything, anyway.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
