Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Katie considers the works of God to be: faith, repentance, declaring with your mouth "Jesus is Lord, baptism, love of God and neighbor, prayer, etc.
These are works of God, commanded by Him, created by Him. These are not works of men. Works of men would be things commanded by men. No one will be saved without obedience to these commands of God.
Now Katie would like to know if Mike considers all of the aforementioned works to be works of men? Or does he agree that they are works of God?
James is speaking of far more than supplying food and clothing to those who need it. Read on.
20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James is teaching what genuine faith is. It is a faith that always results in works. A PERSON refers to all people, not just christians. Now you might say Abraham had already been justified, but Rahab, the prostitute certainly was not. She was an unforgiven, alien sinner. She wasn't considered righteous until she gave lodging to the spies. Rahab had genuine faith which resulted in WORKS.
No need for you to explain. People on the forum are smart enough to figure out what dead faith is by reading James. It's pretty clear. He says,
DEAD FAITH = NO WORKS
FAITH ALONE = DEAD FAITH
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD
It all says the same thing!
You are suggesting that the people who Peter was writing to in 1 Peter had never been baptized. IMPOSSIBLE!! RIDICULOUS!!
1st Peter was written to "the elect." These are christians. How could you ever suggest that "the elect" were not baptized? Christians are baptized believers. Read the book of Acts. It's loaded with examples of those who became christians. Those who believed and were baptized became christians.
To become a disciple one MUST be baptized. Jesus said, 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
Katie doesn't refer people to articles. She refers them to the Bible. Katie just wants people to read the scriptures for themselves, and draw their conclusions from the plain and simple language of the passages.
Katie would like Mike to post his Greek Language expert credentials for all posters to see. Maybe he could post his English language expert credentials at the same time.
Katie is wondering why Mike is so dependent on all of these articles written by others. Katie thinks Mike spends too much time on articles and not enough in the word of God.
I refer readers to the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 1, beginning at verse 10. The context will let you know why Paul makes the statement in verse 17. Paul is addressing the problem of division. He does not want anyone identifying themselves with him. He doesn't want anyone saying, "I follow Paul."
Paul was sent to preach the gospel. That was a far more important calling that baptizing people. Any christian could do the baptizing. But not just anyone could do the preaching.
Paul was baptized to have his sins washed away. Acts 22:16
I don't see anything written in 1 Cor. 1 where Paul minimizes the importance of baptism itself.
How could anyone who claims to be a christian ever believe that Paul, the apostle chosen by Jesus, would tell people that baptism wasn't important? If he even so much as suggested such a thing, then he would be contradicting the command of Jesus to be baptized.
Jeshua would not set up requirements and then violate them...
Then I would suggest that you keep them if you can. Good luck with that one. The law was given to show our helplessness to keep them without God being the fullness of our nature. And when you fall short you will want God to take the law out of the way because you will self condemned and loathsome to yourself and despise others for not keeping them. Better yet, get Mercy and Power from Him to do better and show Mercy to others. The Gift of God is to be and do that which we can not do ourselves.
He is not teaching a false gospel...what he is simply trying to explain is that many say that without baptism you are not saved even though you believe in Jeshua...It seems that they are putting water baptism above Faith and that is wrong...The Gospel is good news and what is good news?...If your creditors for you college loans of, say, $100,000 called you and said, 'You are free and clear now of your debt, some one has paid it for you', wouldn't that be good news?...That is an analogy to a spiritual Truth...
Teaching faith alone for salvation is a false gospel. You will never find a single example of anyone who was ever saved by faith alone in the entire Bible. Faith Alone = Dead Faith. Faith without works is the same as faith alone. It is dead.
A person is justified by faith and works. Grace is the gift freely given WHEN we do the works commanded by God.
Salvation is conditional upon obedient faith. By grace you have been saved, through faith.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
"Not by works" EXCLUDES the works of God. Doing the works of God gives no reason for boasting. Doing the works of God doesn't earn you salvation, nor does God owe you salvation for doing the works He commanded.
We are saved by grace through faith. And genuine faith always results in works. What works? The works of God, commanded by God, created by God, the works God prepared in advance for us to do.
The faith that saves is the faith that works. No one was ever saved who didn't have works and that includes Abraham, the father of faith.
There is a theme that runs continuously throughout the entire Bible, and that is OBEDIENCE. This is what draws the distinction between the saved and the lost. One obeys, the other disobeys. God demands obedience from His people. Without it, one is lost.
Then I would suggest that you keep them if you can. Good luck with that one. The law was given to show our helplessness to keep them without God being the fullness of our nature. And when you fall short you will want God to take the law out of the way because you will self condemned and loathsome to yourself and despise others for not keeping them. Better yet, get Mercy and Power from Him to do better and show Mercy to others. The Gift of God is to be and do that which we can not do ourselves.
You are misunderstanding me...I agree 100% with you here...I was speaking of Baptism...If it is a requirement for ALL believers, that would include the thief on the cross...Baptism is an outward confession of an inward change...It is not a requirement but an inward desire to profess...however, staing that it IS a requirement for Salvation is misleading people...IF it was a requirement set up by Jeshua for all believers then that would apply to the Cross...I think the whole Cross scene was set up by Hawyaw to show that it is indeed FAITH in Jeshua that saves and not of anything that we do...If our inner man changes by Faith then our outward man will reflect that...I believe this is what James was conveying...
I take that as a compliment! June 7th's posts always put a smile on my face.
You do know that she is atheist, don't you?....However, I am not comparing you to that attribute but to the attribute that she always referrs to herself in the third person...Which makes me smile...
I am the root and offspring of David, the bright morning star. I am the first and I am the last, the One who lives, once I died but now I live forever and ever.
If you do not come to believe I AM you will surely die in your sins.
If only you recognized Gods gift, and who it is that’s writing to you, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water. Anyone who drinks the water I give him will never become thirsty the water I give him shall be like a well inside him rising up to provide eternal life.
The Lord says this;
"Render true judgment, and show kindness and compassion toward each other.
They shall be my people, and I will be their God, with faithfulness and justice.
These then are the things you should do: Speak the truth to one another; let there be honesty and peace in the judgments at your gates".
Jesus sent me. We are One.I am the lion of the tribe of Judah. I hold the key of David. A key that opens and no one can close, a key the closes and no one can open.
Get away from the Bible because you are only messing up your human mind. Pray that Jesus will release you from the Devils grip, give you peace of mind to realize who you truly are. You are only human and you are loved of God but not called to teach the Bible. Life has better things for you.
Faith alone does save...Works are a result of Faith by regeneration, not a requirement...This is where many confuse the works resulting from Faith and the works resulting from a feeling of obligation...Paul said 'Confess Jeshua as Lord and believe in your heart that Hawyaw has raised Him from the dead and you shall be saved...No prerequisites and no postrequisites...Katie, If you feel obligated to do good works for your Salvation and they do not flow from a pure heart and desire, then you might want to examine yourself to see if you are truly in the faith...
Abraham...David...Noah...Paul...etc.
This is what I have been trying to tell you...And I believe it is also what Mike was trying to get through to you...
This just contradicts what you have said above...
Okay Rich, you asked for it, so here it is. I'll start with Abram. You believe Abram didn't do works?
Abram was righteous from the time we first meet him in Genesis 12:1. When God told Abram to do something, he did it. God told him to leave his homeland. He did it without question. He had no idea where he was going. He built altars to God and worshipped Him. He called on the name of the Lord. HE CALLED ON THE NAME OF THE LORD! Works my friend. Those are works.
A person is justified by faith and works. Grace is the gift freely given WHEN we do the works commanded by God.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
A person is Justified by Hawyaw alone, according to Paul...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'll start with Abram. You believe Abram didn't do works? 
