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Hi CM. Yes, God gave man volition and allows man to make his decisions with all the consequences, good or bad, which result. When a person rejects the truth, he will believe a lie. When truth is rejected, Satan's cosmic system offers all manner of lies to believe, and God will allow the deception to happen. It is a part of the spiritual warfare of the angelic conflict.
So men don't need God to save them? They have themselves to thank for saving themselves? They have their allmighty wills to thank?
His righteousness is imputed to those that believe. The rest still go to their deserved punishment.
Then Jesus didn't actually die for all sin, and all sin is not paid in full, and all sin isn't overcome... Because, as you say, only those that believe are forgiven...
That doesn't really match what the bible says but to each his own, I suppose.
God sacrifices human for all sins yet hell still exists? I'm baffled by your beliefs.
I'm baffled by these beliefs as well. The scapegoat doesn't actually save anyone until they give their mental ascent of belief in it...which makes the sacrifice absolutely useless IMHO.
But, Jesus, being God as some posit, can't die now can he...so, there actually was no sacrifice at all was there???? A point to ponder...
So men don't need God to save them? They have themselves to thank for saving themselves? They have their allmighty wills to thank?
Apparently not...because according to this theology it is up to individuals whether they are saved or not. It's not Gods will but your will in giving your mental ascent that saves you. It's a little backward IMHO.
I'm baffled by these beliefs as well. The scapegoat doesn't actually save anyone until they give their mental ascent of belief in it...which makes the sacrifice absolutely useless IMHO.
But, Jesus, being God as some posit, can't die now can he...so, there actually was no sacrifice at all was there???? A point to ponder...
Yes Christy... So little faith required. Of course some will say that Jesus' humanity died not his god-part but still leaves a person wondering if there isn't a simpler gospel. One that is more effective at creating a society of good people.
Did Jesus fulfil anything he came to do? The way Christians talk I'd have to say no.
Mike, Christ did not die as a substitute for us. All mankind were placed in Christ when He died. When He died He put the old humanity to death.
The word of God says differently. I gave a number of scriptures which attest to that fact. Here is another one. Hebrews 10:10 'By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.'
Man could not pay the penalty for sin. That is the very reason that Jesus came into the world. To die as a substitute for us.
Anyone who thinks that Jesus didn't die as a substitute for us does not understand the gospel.
And no, all men were NOT placed in Jesus when He died. No one is placed into union with Christ until they believe in Christ. And prior to the church-age no one was placed into union with Christ. That is one of the differences between believers of the church-age and believers of other dispensations.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-21-2011 at 10:28 AM..
So men don't need God to save them? They have themselves to thank for saving themselves? They have their allmighty wills to thank?
No man can be saved until he places his faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is non-meritorious. The merit is in the object of faith which is Jesus Christ. The very first post is all about the fact that man needs God to save him.
Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'
Placing your faith in Christ is the way that the free gift of salvation is taken possession of.
Then Jesus didn't actually die for all sin, and all sin is not paid in full, and all sin isn't overcome... Because, as you say, only those that believe are forgiven...
That doesn't really match what the bible says but to each his own, I suppose.
All sin was judged at the cross (Hebrews 10:12). Not forgiven. The sins of the unbeliever up to the point of his salvation are forgiven when he believes in Christ (Acts 10:43; 26:18). The sins he commits after salvation are forgiven when he names them to God the Father as per 1 John 1:9.
Christ did not die INSTEAD of us. He died FOR us. So that instead of remaining in Adam and the death he brought upon us, we will now be remade in the image of Christ. Man still dies a physical death. But JUST AS IN ADAM ALL DIE (in the exact same way/manner) so ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE in CHRIST, not just brought back to face judgment (which we will), and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever (if we haven't made the cut), but we are given life with no prior consent on our part in either case.
But as long as one has it in their mindset that God created Adam and HOPED that he and his children would choose to serve him from a will that God made capable of disobedience and rebellion, and offered ONE chance during however many years he's given one in this life to accept this offer.....well then mostly our SALVATION depends on us hearing the right messages and making the right decision.
I will continue to believe that God is NOW and HAS BEEN SINCE EDEN, in the process of creating sons (daughters also) in HIS image. It is all HIS work, He has a desire to the work of His hands, and though we certainly have wills, He directs our steps. He is the author and finisher of our faith, and I will believe He does all the work in between. Is there some cooperation expected on our part, of course, but don't forget, it is HE who puts the desire to do good into us.
So easy, yet so difficult for us to give up on the idea that we have some control over what happens. He KNEW what He was doing when He began this whole creation business and I will rest in my view that he is a Good and Merciful Father who wouldn't create knowing that any part of that creation would forever be estranged from Him, let alone suffer in agony in a place of torment or even be snuffed out of existence.
So enjoy your feeling of superiority and accomplishment in your life without sin. But be careful in demanding others to follow your path. It SEEMS to me you are placing more difficult demands upon the people than Moses did, for there are now NEW COMMANDMENTS to honor besides those of the OLD Testament.
The grace of God shine upon our faces this week.
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