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A deceptive, misleading, and false notion predicated on the sensationalism of punishment and rewards.
Therefore, let me ask you a question: "Father, forgive them…" was it God’s will that we sacrifice Jesus for him?
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered (or betrayed) to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn
Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.
Let me ask you another question:
In this scenario, where does the Father fit in? Is he behind it? Inspiring them to murder him? Or is it that, He will raise him up again?
(BTW - the questions will only intensify and you won't find the answers on doctrines.com, so you will have to go within to find them)
Remember: I am a nickle and dime store Philosopher!
Not entirely, for as I have said, "It was not to satisfy the demands of the Father, according to your warped sense of justice."
For the wages of sin is still death and you will die to self, either in this lifetime, or thereafter!
Keep in mind that for carries the connotation of, because of man’s sin. Salvation is not found in any religion, but rather, in the truth, way and life of Christ.
I copied the following from what I said in post #35. Read it carefully and answer the questions I will ask.
Jesus Christ satisfied God's Justice by going to the cross and paying the penalty for man's sins. God the Father was satisfied - propitiated by the substitutional sacrifical death of Christ on the cross. Romans 3:24 'being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Heb 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.'
Now, concerning Romans 3:24-25,
1) Do you see that it says that God displayed Jesus publicly as a propitiation in His blood?
2) Do you understand that propitiation means satisfaction?
3) Do you understand that it refers back to the Mercy seat where on the day of Atonement an animal was sacrificed to cover the sins of Israel for another year?
4) Do you understand that the animal sacrifices were a type or picture of the Messiah which was to come?
5) Do you understand that Romans 3:24-26 shows that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was the price of payment for sin which secured release from the bondage of sin and Satan for every person who trusts God's promise of forgiveness and salvation?
6) Do you understand that Romans 3:25 is saying that Jesus' death on the cross completely satisfied God's righteous demands against sinful mankind?
Romans 3:24-26 states plainly that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was to satisfy the righteous demands of God.
7) Do you understand that you are in contradiction to what Romans 3:24-26 says?
8) Are you saying that you do not believe that Romans 3:24-26 clearly states that Jesus' death was to satisfy the righteous demands of the Father?
I have asked you eight questions. Please give direct answers to all seven.
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered (or betrayed) to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn
Him to death, and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.
Let me ask you another question:
In this scenario, where does the Father fit in? Is he behind it? Inspiring them to murder him? Or is it that, He will raise him up again?
(BTW - the questions will only intensify and you won't find the answers on doctrines.com, so you will have to go within to find them)
Remember: I am a nickle and dime store Philosopher!
No, the answer is not within. The answer is in the Scriptures.
Romans 5:6 'For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
At the right time in human history and in God's plan, God the Father sent Jesus Christ into the world to go to the cross for the sins of the world. Jesus was a willing sacrifice. Generally speaking, both the Jewish and Roman systems of law were quite good. But when it came to Jesus' trials, both systems of law broke down and resulted in Jesus being put on the cross, as God knew would be the case. God used that breakdown of the judicial procedures of the Jews and the Romans to put Jesus on the cross. God did not inspire those breakdowns, but He knew that they would occur.
Jesus was delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God as per Acts 2:23 to go to the cross and die as a sacrificial substitute for us.
John 10:17 ''For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18] ''No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.''
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-24-2011 at 08:54 AM..
I copied the following from what I said in post #35. Read it carefully and answer the questions I will ask.
Jesus Christ satisfied God's Justice by going to the cross and paying the penalty for man's sins. God the Father was satisfied - propitiated by the substitutional sacrifical death of Christ on the cross. Romans 3:24 'being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26] for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Heb 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.'
Now, concerning Romans 3:24-25,
1) Do you see that it says that God displayed Jesus publicly as a propitiation in His blood?
2) Do you understand that propitiation means satisfaction?
3) Do you understand that it refers back to the Mercy seat where on the day of Atonement an animal was sacrificed to cover the sins of Israel for another year?
4) Do you understand that the animal sacrifices were a type or picture of the Messiah which was to come?
5) Do you understand that Romans 3:24-26 shows that the death of Jesus Christ on the cross was the price of payment for sin which secured release from the bondage of sin and Satan for every person who trusts God's promise of forgiveness and salvation?
6) Do you understand that Romans 3:25 is saying that Jesus' death on the cross completely satisfied God's righteous demands against sinful mankind?
Romans 3:24-26 states plainly that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was to satisfy the righteous demands of God.
7) Do you understand that you are in contradiction to what Romans 3:24-26 says?
8) Are you saying that you do not believe that Romans 3:24-26 clearly states that Jesus' death was to satisfy the righteous demands of the Father?
I have asked you eight questions. Please give direct answers to all seven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
No, the answer is not within. The answer is in the Scriptures.
Romans 5:6 'For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
At the right time in human history and in God's plan, God the Father sent Jesus Christ into the world to go to the cross for the sins of the world. Jesus was a willing sacrifice. Generally speaking, both the Jewish and Roman systems of law were quite good. But when it came to Jesus' trials, both systems of law broke down and resulted in Jesus being put on the cross, as God knew would be the case. God used that breakdown of the judicial procedures of the Jews and the Romans to put Jesus on the cross. God did not inspire those breakdowns, but He knew that they would occur.
Jesus was delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God as per Acts 2:23 to go to the cross and die as a sacrificial substitute for us.
John 10:17 ''For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18] ''No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.''
Substitution or Participation?
There is a serious lack of comprehension (linguistically speaking) for the argument that the meaning is "paid in full."
I do not have time at the moment for your nonsense, but will get back to this as soon as possible.
However, I still await an answer to why Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they no not what they do?"
Christ’s sacrifice was not to conciliate the Father to men through that of second hand punishment, rather it was to restore or reconcile that which was lost from the power of sin and death.
You do weave a basket of confusion, having a double indemnity clause or that of paying twice – for the wages of sin is death.
There is a serious lack of comprehension (linguistically speaking) for the argument that the meaning is "paid in full."
I do not have time at the moment for your nonsense, but will get back to this as soon as possible.
However, I still await an answer to why Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they no not what they do?"
Christ’s sacrifice was not to conciliate the Father to men through that of second hand punishment, rather it was to restore or reconcile that which was lost from the power of sin and death.
You do weave a basket of confusion, having a double indemnity clause or that of paying twice – for the wages of sin is death.
The Scriptures do not say that God was reconciled to man, but that man was reconciled to God.
Jesus as the forgiving Messiah asked the Father to forgive those who had crucified Him. However, the reason that God can forgive sin is only possible because of the fact that Jesus bore those sins on the cross and was judged for them in our place.
The Scriptures state plainly that Jesus died on the cross as per the predetermined plan and foreknowlege of God. And that the death of Christ was to satisfy the demands of the Father. You have been shown the appropriate scriptures.
But you believe what you want. It is probable that you will never accept what the Bible says about the matter. I think that I will simply leave you to your beliefs.
For those who are reading, If I haven't said enough to make the issue clear by now that Jesus died a substitutionary sacrificial death on the cross, there is no point in saying anything else.
Christ’s sacrifice was not to conciliate the Father to men through that of second hand punishment, rather it was to restore or reconcile that which was lost from the power of sin and death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The Scriptures do not say that God was reconciled to man, but that man was reconciled to God.
You should pay attention to what a person is actually saying.
I have found that many who profess to be Religious are merely held in the wickedness and unrestrained appetites of their own heart and minds.
"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick."
The death, burial, and resurrection were truly an act of love, mercy and grace within the envelope of forgiveness, overturning the hypocritical verdict of an illegal system of injustice that professes to be judge, jury,
and executioner; sentencing to death the innocent, while proclaiming the righteousness of him who died as their own in a pretense of having his virtues imputed to themselves’ according to the letter of the law.
I would suggest that based on their delusions of grandeur, they see a Psychiatrist.
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