Can your name be blotted out of the Book Of Life? (sinners, Jesus Christ)

[BWW1962]

Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

I heard someone claim that the above means that a saved person can have his name blotted out of the book of life and lose his salvation if they sin. That would imply two things:

1. A person can lose his/her salvation
2. Salvation is through works (sinless life)

Both are false.

Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

"He who overcomes" does not mean a sinless person, it simpleu refers to a saved person. Their names will never be blotted out of from the Lamb's Book Of Life.

So we see that a person can lose their salvation, so point 1 is true. Hebrews 6:1-8 provides the scriptural support that salvation can be lost.

Point 2 is false. I would think all Christians know this because faith IS the means of entering into the Messianic Covenent, not works.

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by BWW1962

So we see that a person can lose their salvation, so point 1 is true. Hebrews 6:1-8 provides the scriptural support that salvation can be lost.

Point 2 is false. I would think all Christians know this because faith IS the means of entering into the Messianic Covenent, not works.

Amen! BWW1962 ...I knew that!

...way...way...back...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

I heard someone claim that the above means that a saved person can have his name blotted out of the book of life and lose his salvation if they sin. That would imply two things:

1. A person can lose his/her salvation
2. Salvation is through works (sinless life)

Both are false.

Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

"He who overcomes" does not mean a sinless person, it simpleu refers to a saved person. Their names will never be blotted out of from the Lamb's Book Of Life.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
L - I - E ! ! !

Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

DO YOU KNOW WHO THE "YOUR" ARE...? THE SEVENTY DISCIPLES THAT JESUS SENT OUT TWO BY TWO, TO PROCLAIM THE WORD OF GOD! THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST! OBEDIENT, UNWILLFULL SINNERS! SABBATH KEEPERS! FAITHFUL SAINTS!

...UGH.


16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. 17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Y0U ABSOLUTELY CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND WILL LOSE YOUR SALVATION IF YOU EVER EVEN HAD IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And Abraham's FAITH/OBEDIENCE was counted unto Him as righteousness!!!...WORKS!!

20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Stop teaching a false gospel![/quote]



Glad to have that all cleared up.

God Bless you!
Verna.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by BWW1962

I am not accusing you of anything Mike555. I am merely responding to your posts.

Once saved, always saved IS a doctrine of men and directly contradicted by the scriptures. The interpretation of Hebrews 6:1-8 you suggest, but not demonstrated, is directly contrary to the scriptures itself.

I am asking you to demonstrate the basis for what you present as Bible principle. Not merely a post of an interpretation or a link to another unsubstantiated claim of which none of the elements are even present in the scripture.

Hebrews 6:1-8 is an explicit contradiction to the “once saved, always saved” assertions.

Finn_Jarber appears to be taking point on this scriptural discussion anyway, so you need not deflect us away from discussion with anymore links.

Thanks

It is impossible to be grace oriented as long as the believer thinks that he can lose his eternal salvation. The eternal security of the believer is well taught in the Scriptures.

Eternal life is a free gift from God and the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Irrevocable - ametamelétos - Not to be repented of (repentence means 'a change of mind.')

Strong's Concordance
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.
Strong's Greek: 278. ???????????? (ametamelétos) -- not repented of

Literally: For not repented of are the grace gifts and calling of God.

God does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen. In eternity past God knew who would believe in Christ, and on that basis He chose them.

God does not and cannot change His mind about His call. The context of Romans 11:29 is Israel, (God has not cast away Israel), but the principle applies to all to whom God has given eternal life.

In Rom 11:30 Paul then refers to the Gentiles having now been shown mercy, and then in Rom 11:32 Paul writes that mercy has been shown to all. 'All' refers to both groups - Jews and Gentiles who in this present dispensation are a new creation. The Church is the body of Christ.

The gifts which God bestows on those who believe in Christ are forgiveness of sins, sanctification, and eternal life.

Regarding sanctification: The sins of the world, past, present, and future, were poured out on Christ during the three hour period from noon to about 3:00 P.M. When the Father had judged all the sins of the world Jesus said ''Tetelestai'' It is finished. More accurately, ''It has been finished.'' Tetelestai is in the Perfect Indicative. The Perfect Indicative refers to past action completed with results existing forever.

Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Hegiasmenois - 'have been sanctified' is a Perfect Participle.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Acts 26:18 is saying that the believer has been positionally sanctified (set apart, placed into union with Christ) through faith in Christ, and he is sanctified forever.

Hebrews 10:10 states, ''By this will we (believers) have been [we are] sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.''

Again, although the phrase 'esmen - we are' is Present tense, the word 'sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means past action completed with results continuing forever.

Hebrews 10:10 is referring to Positional Sanctification which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.


Now go to Hebrews 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Jesus' sacrifice was offered for all time. Not just until someone commits willful sin.


Now see Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Teteleioken -'He has perfected,' for all time those who are sanctified.

By the one offering of Jesus Christ, those who have believed in Him have been Positionally Sanctified and Positionally perfected FOR ALL TIME.

No matter what the condition of the believer is EXPERIENTIALLY after his eternal salvation, POSITIONALLY, God has caused him to be Sanctified FOREVER.



Sin is not an issue so far as the believers eternal security is concerned. The believer will be disciplined for sin, and continuing disobedience will result in loss of eternal rewards, but no amount of sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation. God disciplines the believer as a son no matter how rebellious he may be (Hebrews 12:4-6).


Hebrews 6:4-8 is simply referring to Jewish believers who were enticed into reverting back to the practices of Judaism. They began doing animal sacrifices which since the sacrifice of Christ on the cross were no longer to be practiced since they simply pointed to the sacrifice of Christ. Because they were doing this, they were in effect recrucifying Jesus. They had fallen away from what they had been taught concerning Christ. They had not and could not fall away from their eternal salvation. But they could come under divine discipline. Though Paul states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance since they are again crucifying to themselves the Son of God, what is impossible for man, is not impossible for God. Through divine discipline the wayward believer might repent - change his mind about dead works and about faith in Christ (Hebrews 6:1).

If the believer who has fallen away (the reverionistic believer) fails to recover, then he is useless, a loser believer and God may well take him out of this life under maximum divine discipline - the sin unto death, in which the reversionistic believer is taken home to heaven in a state of disgrace.

'Being burned' (Hebrews 6:8) fire (Hebrews 10:27) refers to judgment. In the case of the believer, it NEVER refers to the lake of fire.

Hebrews 6:8 'But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.', is a metaphor which recalls the original curse which God put on the ground (Gen 3:17-19). The burning of a field to destroy the rank growth of vegetation it produced which might be harmful to health was practiced in the ancient world. The purpose was to destroy the unwanted produce in the field. With that done, the field might be of use. The unproductive Christian life, the believer who has fallen away into reversionism is subject to severe punishment from God (Heb 10:27). The writer of Hebrews said in Heb 12:29 'for our God is a consumng fire. God dishes out severe punishment to believers who disobey, but He does not take back His free gift of eternal life.

Refer back to Lamentations 4:6 and Jeremiah 17:27, both of which deal with God's punishment to 'His people,' - Believers. This is temporal punishment. Not eternal punishment.

Lamentations 4:6 'For the iniquity of the daughter of My people is greater than the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands were turned toward her. The resulting punishment - Lam 4:9 'Better are those slain with the sword than those slain with hunger; For they pine away, being stricken for lack of the fruits of the field. 10] The hands of compassionate women boiled their own children; they became food for them because of the destruction of the daughter of my people. 11] The Lord has accomplished His wrath, He has poured out His fierce anger; and He has kindled a fire in Zion which has consumed its foundation.


God warned His people in Jeremiah 17:27 ''But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched. '' '

The fire mentioned in those two passages refer to TEMPORAL punishment. Not eternal punishment. Not to a loss of eternal salvation.

King Saul came to a point where because of his continual disobedience he was taken out of this life under the sin unto death, but he never lost his eternal salvation. When the prophet Samuel, long since dead, was brought up in a vision to King Saul, he told Saul that the very next day, he would be with him (1 Samuel 28:19). And Samuel was in Abraham's bosom - The Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. King Saul, despite his disobedience and being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline ended up in Paradise. He never lost his salvation.


I mentioned earlier that the gifts of God are irrevocable. The church-age believer at the moment of his salvation is the beneficiary of at least forty grace gifts. They are as follows...

1)Access to God (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:18; Eph.3:12)

2)The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.4:5)

3)The Unique Availability of Divine Power (Eph. 6:10; Acts 1:8)

4)Efficacious Grace (Eph 2:8-9; 2 Cor.6:1-2)

5)Election (Eph.1:3-4; Col 3:12-17)

6)Equal Privilege and Opportunity (Gal. 3:26-28)

7)Escrow Blessings (Eph. 1:3)

8)Eternal Life (1 John 5:11-13)

9)Eternal Security (John 10:29; Rom.8:31-32; Rom. 8:1; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:21; John 10:28)

10)The filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18; Gal. 5:16; John 4:24)

11)A Secure, Immovable Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11; Eph 2:20; Deut. 32:4)

12)Being Presented as a gift from God the Father to God the Son (John 10:29; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 17:11; Rev. 19:7-10; Rev.19:16)

13)Deliverance from the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (John 3:18; Rom. 8:1)

14)Identification with God the Son in Biblical Analogy (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 15:17; Col. 1:18; Heb. 13:20; John 15:5; Eph. 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-6; Heb. 4:14; 1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 19:7; Rev. 19:14-16)

15)The Indwelling of God the Father (John 14:22-23; Eph.4:6; Phil. 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9)

16)The Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11;1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16)

17)The Indwelling of God the Son (John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom. 8:10; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Col.1:27)

18)An Eternal Inheritance (Heb. 9:15; Eph. 1:14; 1 Peter 1:4)

19)Justification (Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7; Rom 3:28)

20)Transference into the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:3; Col. 1:13)

21)Deliverance from the Kingdom of Satan (Col. 1:13)

22)The New Spiritual Species (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 6:15)

23)Positional Sanctification--adopted as Adult sons (Rom. 8:15; [Rom. 8:23-future]; Eph. 1:5)

24)Predestination (Eph. 1:5)

25)The Ten Problem-Solving Devices of the Predesigned Plan of God ( Refer to the link that I will provide at the bottom of this list.)

26)Propitiation (Rom. 3:24-25; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)

27)The Unique Predesigned Plan of God for the Church-age (Gal. 5:16; Eph 3:18. Refer to link for greater detail)

28)Reconciliation (2 Cor.5:19; Rom. 5:10)

29)Redemption (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14)

30)Regeneration (John 3:5-16; Titus 3:5)

31)The guarantee of a Resurrection Body (John 11:25; 1 Cor. 15:43; Phil. 3:20-21)

32)The Imputed Righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22; 2 Cor. 5:21)

33)The Royal Ambassadorship (2 Cor. 5:20; Phil. 3:20)

34)Entrance into the Royal Family of God (Rev. 1:6; Acts 1:5; Rom. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)

35)The Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:5; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10)

36)The Removal of all Scar Tissue from the Soul (Isa. 43:25,44:22)

37)The Sealing Ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14)

38)Deliverance from the Power and Influence of the Old Sin Nature (Rom. 2:29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11; Eph. 4:22; 1 John 1:9; John 8:34; John 8:36)

39)The Distribution of Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor.12:7-11; Eph. 4:11)

40)The Unlimited Atonement (2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:6;4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2; Rom. 5:6

These 40 grace gifts are described in the following publication.

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

And they are irrevocable.

Regarding number 10 however - the filling of the Spirit, that is lost every time a believer commits a sin, and is restored when the sin is named as per 1 John 1:9.

The believer is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. Those believers who do not understand this will never be grace oriented and will never advance in their spiritual lives. They will never get out of spiritual kindergarden.

Now here are the links again with regard to Hebrews 6:4-8

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: HEBREWS CHAPTER 6

Falling Away? A Study of Hebrews 6 | GraceThruFaith

http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1992/92july3.html (broken link)

[jdaelectro]

Originally Posted by Mike555

It is impossible to be grace oriented as long as the believer thinks that he can lose his eternal salvation. The eternal security of the believer is well taught in the Scriptures.

Eternal life is a free gift from God and the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Irrevocable - ametamelétos - Not to be repented of (repentence means 'a change of mind.')

Strong's Concordance
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.
Strong's Greek: 278. ???????????? (ametamelétos) -- not repented of

Literally: For not repented of are the grace gifts and calling of God.

God does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen. In eternity past God knew who would believe in Christ, and on that basis He chose them.

God does not and cannot change His mind about His call. The context of Romans 11:29 is Israel, (God has not cast away Israel), but the principle applies to all to whom God has given eternal life.

In Rom 11:30 Paul then refers to the Gentiles having now been shown mercy, and then in Rom 11:32 Paul writes that mercy has been shown to all. 'All' refers to both groups - Jews and Gentiles who in this present dispensation are a new creation. The Church is the body of Christ.

The gifts which God bestows on those who believe in Christ are forgiveness of sins, sanctification, and eternal life.

Regarding sanctification: The sins of the world, past, present, and future, were poured out on Christ during the three hour period from noon to about 3:00 P.M. When the Father had judged all the sins of the world Jesus said ''Tetelestai'' It is finished. More accurately, ''It has been finished.'' Tetelestai is in the Perfect Indicative. The Perfect Indicative refers to past action completed with results existing forever.

Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Hegiasmenois - 'have been sanctified' is a Perfect Participle.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Acts 26:18 is saying that the believer has been positionally sanctified (set apart, placed into union with Christ) through faith in Christ, and he is sanctified forever.

Hebrews 10:10 states, ''By this will we (believers) have been [we are] sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.''

Again, although the phrase 'esmen - we are' is Present tense, the word 'sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means past action completed with results continuing forever.

Hebrews 10:10 is referring to Positional Sanctification which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.


Now go to Hebrews 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Jesus' sacrifice was offered for all time. Not just until someone commits willful sin.


Now see Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Teteleioken -'He has perfected,' for all time those who are sanctified.

By the one offering of Jesus Christ, those who have believed in Him have been Positionally Sanctified and Positionally perfected FOR ALL TIME.

No matter what the condition of the believer is EXPERIENTIALLY after his eternal salvation, POSITIONALLY, God has caused him to be Sanctified FOREVER.



Sin is not an issue so far as the believers eternal security is concerned. The believer will be disciplined for sin, and continuing disobedience will result in loss of eternal rewards, but no amount of sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation. God disciplines the believer as a son no matter how rebellious he may be (Hebrews 12:4-6).


Hebrews 6:4-8 is simply referring to Jewish believers who were enticed into reverting back to the practices of Judaism. They began doing animal sacrifices which since the sacrifice of Christ on the cross were no longer to be practiced since they simply pointed to the sacrifice of Christ. Because they were doing this, they were in effect recrucifying Jesus. They had fallen away from what they had been taught concerning Christ. They had not and could not fall away from their eternal salvation. But they could come under divine discipline. Though Paul states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance since they are again crucifying to themselves the Son of God, what is impossible for man, is not impossible for God. Through divine discipline the wayward believer might repent - change his mind about dead works and about faith in Christ (Hebrews 6:1).

If the believer who has fallen away (the reverionistic believer) fails to recover, then he is useless, a loser believer and God may well take him out of this life under maximum divine discipline - the sin unto death, in which the reversionistic believer is taken home to heaven in a state of disgrace.

'Being burned' (Hebrews 6:8) fire (Hebrews 10:27) refers to judgment. In the case of the believer, it NEVER refers to the lake of fire.

Hebrews 6:8 'But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.', is a metaphor which recalls the original curse which God put on the ground (Gen 3:17-19). The burning of a field to destroy the rank growth of vegetation it produced which might be harmful to health was practiced in the ancient world. The purpose was to destroy the unwanted produce in the field. With that done, the field might be of use. The unproductive Christian life, the believer who has fallen away into reversionism is subject to severe punishment from God (Heb 10:27). The writer of Hebrews said in Heb 12:29 'for our God is a consumng fire. God dishes out severe punishment to believers who disobey, but He does not take back His free gift of eternal life.

Refer back to Lamentations 4:6 and Jeremiah 17:27, both of which deal with God's punishment to 'His people,' - Believers. This is temporal punishment. Not eternal punishment.

Lamentations 4:6 'For the iniquity of the daughter of My people is greater than the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands were turned toward her. The resulting punishment - Lam 4:9 'Better are those slain with the sword than those slain with hunger; For they pine away, being stricken for lack of the fruits of the field. 10] The hands of compassionate women boiled their own children; they became food for them because of the destruction of the daughter of my people. 11] The Lord has accomplished His wrath, He has poured out His fierce anger; and He has kindled a fire in Zion which has consumed its foundation.


God warned His people in Jeremiah 17:27 ''But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched. '' '

The fire mentioned in those two passages refer to TEMPORAL punishment. Not eternal punishment. Not to a loss of eternal salvation.

King Saul came to a point where because of his continual disobedience he was taken out of this life under the sin unto death, but he never lost his eternal salvation. When the prophet Samuel, long since dead, was brought up in a vision to King Saul, he told Saul that the very next day, he would be with him (1 Samuel 28:19). And Samuel was in Abraham's bosom - The Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. King Saul, despite his disobedience and being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline ended up in Paradise. He never lost his salvation.


I mentioned earlier that the gifts of God are irrevocable. The church-age believer at the moment of his salvation is the beneficiary of at least forty grace gifts. They are as follows...

1)Access to God (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:18; Eph.3:12)

2)The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.4:5)

3)The Unique Availability of Divine Power (Eph. 6:10; Acts 1:8)

4)Efficacious Grace (Eph 2:8-9; 2 Cor.6:1-2)

5)Election (Eph.1:3-4; Col 3:12-17)

6)Equal Privilege and Opportunity (Gal. 3:26-28)

7)Escrow Blessings (Eph. 1:3)

8)Eternal Life (1 John 5:11-13)

9)Eternal Security (John 10:29; Rom.8:31-32; Rom. 8:1; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:21; John 10:28)

10)The filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18; Gal. 5:16; John 4:24)

11)A Secure, Immovable Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11; Eph 2:20; Deut. 32:4)

12)Being Presented as a gift from God the Father to God the Son (John 10:29; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 17:11; Rev. 19:7-10; Rev.19:16)

13)Deliverance from the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (John 3:18; Rom. 8:1)

14)Identification with God the Son in Biblical Analogy (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 15:17; Col. 1:18; Heb. 13:20; John 15:5; Eph. 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-6; Heb. 4:14; 1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 19:7; Rev. 19:14-16)

15)The Indwelling of God the Father (John 14:22-23; Eph.4:6; Phil. 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9)

16)The Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11;1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16)

17)The Indwelling of God the Son (John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom. 8:10; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Col.1:27)

18)An Eternal Inheritance (Heb. 9:15; Eph. 1:14; 1 Peter 1:4)

19)Justification (Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7; Rom 3:28)

20)Transference into the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:3; Col. 1:13)

21)Deliverance from the Kingdom of Satan (Col. 1:13)

22)The New Spiritual Species (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 6:15)

23)Positional Sanctification--adopted as Adult sons (Rom. 8:15; [Rom. 8:23-future]; Eph. 1:5)

24)Predestination (Eph. 1:5)

25)The Ten Problem-Solving Devices of the Predesigned Plan of God ( Refer to the link that I will provide at the bottom of this list.)

26)Propitiation (Rom. 3:24-25; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)

27)The Unique Predesigned Plan of God for the Church-age (Gal. 5:16; Eph 3:18. Refer to link for greater detail)

28)Reconciliation (2 Cor.5:19; Rom. 5:10)

29)Redemption (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14)

30)Regeneration (John 3:5-16; Titus 3:5)

31)The guarantee of a Resurrection Body (John 11:25; 1 Cor. 15:43; Phil. 3:20-21)

32)The Imputed Righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22; 2 Cor. 5:21)

33)The Royal Ambassadorship (2 Cor. 5:20; Phil. 3:20)

34)Entrance into the Royal Family of God (Rev. 1:6; Acts 1:5; Rom. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)

35)The Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:5; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10)

36)The Removal of all Scar Tissue from the Soul (Isa. 43:25,44:22)

37)The Sealing Ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14)

38)Deliverance from the Power and Influence of the Old Sin Nature (Rom. 2:29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11; Eph. 4:22; 1 John 1:9; John 8:34; John 8:36)

39)The Distribution of Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor.12:7-11; Eph. 4:11)

40)The Unlimited Atonement (2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:6;4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2; Rom. 5:6

These 40 grace gifts are described in the following publication.

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

And they are irrevocable.

Regarding number 10 however - the filling of the Spirit, that is lost every time a believer commits a sin, and is restored when the sin is named as per 1 John 1:9.

The believer is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. Those believers who do not understand this will never be grace oriented and will never advance in their spiritual lives. They will never get out of spiritual kindergarden.

Now here are the links again with regard to Hebrews 6:4-8

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: HEBREWS CHAPTER 6

Falling Away? A Study of Hebrews 6 | GraceThruFaith

No Second Repentance? Hebrews 6:4-8 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1992/92july3.html - broken link)

Amen!!!

Awesome post.

[BWW1962]

Originally Posted by Mike555

It is impossible to be grace oriented as long as the believer thinks that he can lose his eternal salvation. The eternal security of the believer is well taught in the Scriptures...

Does this mean you have decided to engage in dialog about these interpretations you present?

We can start with your opening statement just to see.

Originally Posted by Mike555

It is impossible to be grace oriented as long as the believer thinks that he can lose his eternal salvation.

It is not only possible to be grace oriented, it is endemic and undiminished even though there is a chance WE can lose it.

(Galatians 5:4) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB)

"Being severed from Christ" and having "fallen from grace" are explicit and clear. Do you refute the meaning of these phrases? They both explicitly convey a previous state of grace and a subsequent separation; do they not? We also see that it was a consequence of the believer's "seeking to be justified by law" that evoked this transition. Would you suggest there is no transition from grace?

Originally Posted by Mike555

The eternal security of the believer is well taught in the Scriptures

I agree with this statement in general, but the eternal security is not in the "believer" but in the promise. As we see in Galatians 5:4 the "believer" had stopped believing in Christ and believed in being "justified by law" therefore they had generated the "fallen from grace" condition.

Just because we retain free will and can fall away due to changing our beliefs, it in no way diminishes the appreciation and understanding of grace. One does not have to believe in “once saved, always saved” to believe in grace.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by BWW1962

Does this mean you have decided to engage in dialog about these interpretations you present?

We can start with your opening statement just to see.

It is not only possible to be grace oriented, it is endemic and undiminished even though there is a chance WE can lose it.

(Galatians 5:4) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (NASB)

"Being severed from Christ" and having "fallen from grace" are explicit and clear. Do you refute the meaning of these phrases? They both explicitly convey a previous state of grace and a subsequent separation; do they not? We also see that it was a consequence of the believer's "seeking to be justified by law" that evoked this transition. Would you suggest there is no transition from grace?

I agree with this statement in general, but the eternal security is not in the "believer" but in the promise. As we see in Galatians 5:4 the "believer" had stopped believing in Christ and believed in being "justified by law" therefore they had generated the "fallen from grace" condition.

Just because we retain free will and can fall away due to changing our beliefs, it in no way diminishes the appreciation and understanding of grace. One does not have to believe in “once saved, always saved” to believe in grace.

No, it does not mean that there is going to be a dialog. I have provided sufficent information from the Scriptures to show that the believer has eternal security. You can either believe it or not believe it. I don't particularly care. You are responsible for what you believe. And you must bear the consequences. All I can do is point out the truth. No legalist is grace oriented. The legalist has no concept of what God's grace really means. And as a matter of fact, if a person has never understood that eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, but has instead attempted to earn his salvation, he isn't even saved, and is on his way to hell.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by jdaelectro

Amen!!!

Awesome post.

Thank you.

[Howest2008]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Thank you.

The only thing that you have proven thus far is that if you want to be kept by GOD there is eternal Salvation for you , but on the other hand if you don't " you lose your SALVATION " .

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by BWW1962

I read your post many times and it is incomprehensible as an explanation of "once saved always saved". You state repentance is needed several times and then conclude saying it is not. You cite a completely unrelated scripture and then cannot answer questions. You might as well have cited Genesis 1:1 as 1 Cor 3:13 as a support for your explanation

I appreciate that you have done all you can. Thanks for the effort.

Which post did you read?

Yes, I know you can't comprehend, and that it the problem, and the reason there is no point in going over it again and again. I could explain it again, but you would simply come back to say you still don't get it.

See the bolded part? That is the other reason there is no point in talking to you. You claim I have said things I have not said.

You believe you can lose your salvation if you don't perform the right rituals, and works and comply to every command without fail, and 1 Cor 3:13 clearly says it is not the case. How can you sit there and pretend it has nothing so do with it?

[Finn_Jarber]

Originally Posted by Mike555

It is impossible to be grace oriented as long as the believer thinks that he can lose his eternal salvation. The eternal security of the believer is well taught in the Scriptures.

Eternal life is a free gift from God and the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 11:29 'for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Irrevocable - ametamelétos - Not to be repented of (repentence means 'a change of mind.')

Strong's Concordance
Definition: not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind.
Strong's Greek: 278. ???????????? (ametamelétos) -- not repented of

Literally: For not repented of are the grace gifts and calling of God.

God does not revoke what He has given or whom He has chosen. In eternity past God knew who would believe in Christ, and on that basis He chose them.

God does not and cannot change His mind about His call. The context of Romans 11:29 is Israel, (God has not cast away Israel), but the principle applies to all to whom God has given eternal life.

In Rom 11:30 Paul then refers to the Gentiles having now been shown mercy, and then in Rom 11:32 Paul writes that mercy has been shown to all. 'All' refers to both groups - Jews and Gentiles who in this present dispensation are a new creation. The Church is the body of Christ.

The gifts which God bestows on those who believe in Christ are forgiveness of sins, sanctification, and eternal life.

Regarding sanctification: The sins of the world, past, present, and future, were poured out on Christ during the three hour period from noon to about 3:00 P.M. When the Father had judged all the sins of the world Jesus said ''Tetelestai'' It is finished. More accurately, ''It has been finished.'' Tetelestai is in the Perfect Indicative. The Perfect Indicative refers to past action completed with results existing forever.

Acts 26:18 'to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Hegiasmenois - 'have been sanctified' is a Perfect Participle.

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

Acts 26:18 is saying that the believer has been positionally sanctified (set apart, placed into union with Christ) through faith in Christ, and he is sanctified forever.

Hebrews 10:10 states, ''By this will we (believers) have been [we are] sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL.''

Again, although the phrase 'esmen - we are' is Present tense, the word 'sanctified' is in the Perfect tense which means past action completed with results continuing forever.

Hebrews 10:10 is referring to Positional Sanctification which occurs at the moment of faith in Christ.


Now go to Hebrews 10:12 'but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Jesus' sacrifice was offered for all time. Not just until someone commits willful sin.


Now see Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Teteleioken -'He has perfected,' for all time those who are sanctified.

By the one offering of Jesus Christ, those who have believed in Him have been Positionally Sanctified and Positionally perfected FOR ALL TIME.

No matter what the condition of the believer is EXPERIENTIALLY after his eternal salvation, POSITIONALLY, God has caused him to be Sanctified FOREVER.



Sin is not an issue so far as the believers eternal security is concerned. The believer will be disciplined for sin, and continuing disobedience will result in loss of eternal rewards, but no amount of sin will cause a believer to lose his salvation. God disciplines the believer as a son no matter how rebellious he may be (Hebrews 12:4-6).


Hebrews 6:4-8 is simply referring to Jewish believers who were enticed into reverting back to the practices of Judaism. They began doing animal sacrifices which since the sacrifice of Christ on the cross were no longer to be practiced since they simply pointed to the sacrifice of Christ. Because they were doing this, they were in effect recrucifying Jesus. They had fallen away from what they had been taught concerning Christ. They had not and could not fall away from their eternal salvation. But they could come under divine discipline. Though Paul states that it is impossible to renew them to repentance since they are again crucifying to themselves the Son of God, what is impossible for man, is not impossible for God. Through divine discipline the wayward believer might repent - change his mind about dead works and about faith in Christ (Hebrews 6:1).

If the believer who has fallen away (the reverionistic believer) fails to recover, then he is useless, a loser believer and God may well take him out of this life under maximum divine discipline - the sin unto death, in which the reversionistic believer is taken home to heaven in a state of disgrace.

'Being burned' (Hebrews 6:8) fire (Hebrews 10:27) refers to judgment. In the case of the believer, it NEVER refers to the lake of fire.

Hebrews 6:8 'But if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.', is a metaphor which recalls the original curse which God put on the ground (Gen 3:17-19). The burning of a field to destroy the rank growth of vegetation it produced which might be harmful to health was practiced in the ancient world. The purpose was to destroy the unwanted produce in the field. With that done, the field might be of use. The unproductive Christian life, the believer who has fallen away into reversionism is subject to severe punishment from God (Heb 10:27). The writer of Hebrews said in Heb 12:29 'for our God is a consumng fire. God dishes out severe punishment to believers who disobey, but He does not take back His free gift of eternal life.

Refer back to Lamentations 4:6 and Jeremiah 17:27, both of which deal with God's punishment to 'His people,' - Believers. This is temporal punishment. Not eternal punishment.

Lamentations 4:6 'For the iniquity of the daughter of My people is greater than the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands were turned toward her. The resulting punishment - Lam 4:9 'Better are those slain with the sword than those slain with hunger; For they pine away, being stricken for lack of the fruits of the field. 10] The hands of compassionate women boiled their own children; they became food for them because of the destruction of the daughter of my people. 11] The Lord has accomplished His wrath, He has poured out His fierce anger; and He has kindled a fire in Zion which has consumed its foundation.


God warned His people in Jeremiah 17:27 ''But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates, and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched. '' '

The fire mentioned in those two passages refer to TEMPORAL punishment. Not eternal punishment. Not to a loss of eternal salvation.

King Saul came to a point where because of his continual disobedience he was taken out of this life under the sin unto death, but he never lost his eternal salvation. When the prophet Samuel, long since dead, was brought up in a vision to King Saul, he told Saul that the very next day, he would be with him (1 Samuel 28:19). And Samuel was in Abraham's bosom - The Paradise side of Sheol/Hades. King Saul, despite his disobedience and being taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline ended up in Paradise. He never lost his salvation.


I mentioned earlier that the gifts of God are irrevocable. The church-age believer at the moment of his salvation is the beneficiary of at least forty grace gifts. They are as follows...

1)Access to God (Rom. 5:2; Eph. 2:18; Eph.3:12)

2)The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.12:13; Gal.3:26-28; Eph.4:5)

3)The Unique Availability of Divine Power (Eph. 6:10; Acts 1:8)

4)Efficacious Grace (Eph 2:8-9; 2 Cor.6:1-2)

5)Election (Eph.1:3-4; Col 3:12-17)

6)Equal Privilege and Opportunity (Gal. 3:26-28)

7)Escrow Blessings (Eph. 1:3)

8)Eternal Life (1 John 5:11-13)

9)Eternal Security (John 10:29; Rom.8:31-32; Rom. 8:1; 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 Cor. 12:21; John 10:28)

10)The filling of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 5:18; Gal. 5:16; John 4:24)

11)A Secure, Immovable Foundation (1 Cor. 3:11; Eph 2:20; Deut. 32:4)

12)Being Presented as a gift from God the Father to God the Son (John 10:29; John 17:2; John 17:6; John 17:9; John 17:11; Rev. 19:7-10; Rev.19:16)

13)Deliverance from the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire (John 3:18; Rom. 8:1)

14)Identification with God the Son in Biblical Analogy (1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 15:17; Col. 1:18; Heb. 13:20; John 15:5; Eph. 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-6; Heb. 4:14; 1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 19:7; Rev. 19:14-16)

15)The Indwelling of God the Father (John 14:22-23; Eph.4:6; Phil. 2:13; 1 John 4:15; 2 John 1:9)

16)The Indwelling of God the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:11;1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Cor. 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16)

17)The Indwelling of God the Son (John 14:20; John 17:22-23,26; Rom. 8:10; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 2:20; Col.1:27)

18)An Eternal Inheritance (Heb. 9:15; Eph. 1:14; 1 Peter 1:4)

19)Justification (Gal. 2:16; Tit. 3:7; Rom 3:28)

20)Transference into the Kingdom of God (Eph. 2:3; Col. 1:13)

21)Deliverance from the Kingdom of Satan (Col. 1:13)

22)The New Spiritual Species (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal 6:15)

23)Positional Sanctification--adopted as Adult sons (Rom. 8:15; [Rom. 8:23-future]; Eph. 1:5)

24)Predestination (Eph. 1:5)

25)The Ten Problem-Solving Devices of the Predesigned Plan of God ( Refer to the link that I will provide at the bottom of this list.)

26)Propitiation (Rom. 3:24-25; 1 John 2:2, 4:10)

27)The Unique Predesigned Plan of God for the Church-age (Gal. 5:16; Eph 3:18. Refer to link for greater detail)

28)Reconciliation (2 Cor.5:19; Rom. 5:10)

29)Redemption (Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14)

30)Regeneration (John 3:5-16; Titus 3:5)

31)The guarantee of a Resurrection Body (John 11:25; 1 Cor. 15:43; Phil. 3:20-21)

32)The Imputed Righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22; 2 Cor. 5:21)

33)The Royal Ambassadorship (2 Cor. 5:20; Phil. 3:20)

34)Entrance into the Royal Family of God (Rev. 1:6; Acts 1:5; Rom. 6:3-4; 1 Cor. 6:19-20)

35)The Royal Priesthood (1 Peter 2:5; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10)

36)The Removal of all Scar Tissue from the Soul (Isa. 43:25,44:22)

37)The Sealing Ministry of the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14)

38)Deliverance from the Power and Influence of the Old Sin Nature (Rom. 2:29; Phil. 3:3; Col. 2:11; Eph. 4:22; 1 John 1:9; John 8:34; John 8:36)

39)The Distribution of Spiritual Gifts (1 Cor.12:7-11; Eph. 4:11)

40)The Unlimited Atonement (2 Cor. 5:14-15; 1 Tim. 2:6;4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2; Rom. 5:6

These 40 grace gifts are described in the following publication.

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

And they are irrevocable.

Regarding number 10 however - the filling of the Spirit, that is lost every time a believer commits a sin, and is restored when the sin is named as per 1 John 1:9.

The believer is eternally secure. He can never lose his salvation. Those believers who do not understand this will never be grace oriented and will never advance in their spiritual lives. They will never get out of spiritual kindergarden.

Now here are the links again with regard to Hebrews 6:4-8

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: HEBREWS CHAPTER 6

Falling Away? A Study of Hebrews 6 | GraceThruFaith

No Second Repentance? Hebrews 6:4-8 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1992/92july3.html - broken link)

Well done. We all know they will come back and say "I don't get it, you are not being clear", but all you can do is take the horse to the water. If they refuse to drink, it's their fault.