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I do have to say.... amen !!! And have thought the same with UR and OSAS theology, there really is not different, just worded differently !!
CM, the eternal salvation of the believer has nothing to do with the heresy of Universalism. Universalism falsely teaches that all men will be saved, or according to some Universalists, everyone already is saved. Neither of these beliefs are true.
The fact that whoever of their own volition trusts in Christ for salvation is eternally saved is taught in Scripture.
I assure you that I am not a Universalist. Those who die never having received Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire, forever separated from God.
CM, the eternal salvation of the believer has nothing to do with the heresy of Universalism. Universalism falsely teaches that all men will be saved, or according to some Universalists, everyone already is saved. Neither of these beliefs are true.
The fact that whoever of their own volition trusts in Christ for salvation is eternally saved is taught in Scripture.
I assure you that I am not a Universalist. Those who die never having received Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire, forever separated from God.
I hope that you read what I said in post #155.
Yet, according to the ideology of OSAS, a believer that God will save all through Christ is saved because that person is putting their faith in Christ to accomplish saving the world. Whether a person believes he actually will save the whole world is irrelevant to the eternal security of that believer.
The paradox is that many theological positions will say that Christian Universalism leads people into hell , while the teacher of such a thing is saved. Yet the person who ends up trusting that God will save all through Jesus through such a teacher is saved according to OSAS.
CM, the eternal salvation of the believer has nothing to do with the heresy of Universalism. Universalism falsely teaches that all men will be saved, or according to some Universalists, everyone already is saved. Neither of these beliefs are true.
The fact that whoever of their own volition trusts in Christ for salvation is eternally saved is taught in Scripture.
I assure you that I am not a Universalist. Those who die never having received Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire, forever separated from God.
I hope that you read what I said in post #155.
Yet, you cannot explain those scriptures that contradict your belief and clearly show that faith can be lost. Your only response seems to be that they never had faith to begin with, which a contradiction to the scripture again. (Galatians 5:4 Hebrews 6:6) Galatians even uses the terminology you use "separated from Christ" and you acknowledge those in that condition "will spend eternity in the lake of fire". You have turned a blind eye to those scriptures or created interpretations that cannot even be seen in the clear message as written in the Bible. For instance, which verses of Hebrews 6:1-8 talk about sacrifice? Which verses talk about "works" being the subject? Your presented interpretations are just not present in the words or context of the scriptures.
You acknowledge that salvation is gained through faith but then cannot be lost by lack of faith. People cannot have a change in heart?
There is this reality that you cannot face. Some people lose their faith and renounce Christ. The "Once saved, always saved" belief fails in that real world application. You cannot say they never did have faith that would put you in a position of claiming you could judge their heart. We have the two cited scriptures in this post that show it is possible to fall away.
If you truly believe faith is required for salvation, how can you deny the absence of faith is not deserving of judgment. You don't, except in the instance of those who have already proclaimed their faith and then renounce it.
Do you suggest that once someone has been saved they have lost their free will and are no longer capable of denying their faith in the future?
Repeating your previously posted bad interpretations does not address these topics. It is just evasion.
Yes, indeed. Such person grieves/suffocates the Holy Spirit in them and prevents it from working in his/her life. Spiritual growth stops until such person repents and gets back on the path.
And if they don"t repent? Their salvation is still irrevocable?
The main problem with these kinds of doctrines is that they simply try to leverage people to think they have to believe the way the speaker is believing.
That is why some, even if they have touched upon the truth will still try to say certain believers were never saved in the first place. To say that you can screw up and God will forfeit his promise is just absurd and not scriptural at all.
And who spoke Revelation 2 ......
So I guess I'll just have to believe the way the speaker is believing and you go on and just do what you have been doing.
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
So I guess I'll just have to believe the way the speaker is believing and you go on and just do what you have been doing.
Romans 2:8
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
The problem with your position is that you would of said the exact same thing about something you may have been wrong about.
Don't try to tell the forum that you have never been wrong about anything you believe the bible says, and while you were wrong you would of played the game that you were only repeating the truth.
That is why such comments are absurd and have no relevance in a meaningful discussion.
The fact of the matter in these discussions is that you believe an interpretation of scripture. I personally have no problem that you do so and that we disagree. The only thing I take issue with is statements that have nothing to do with whether any particular interpretation is correct or not.
If in the future you ever come to believe you are wrong about something then all your claims of repeating the truth mean nothing as it has in the past when you are wrong. That goes for any of us, that is why I admit and have no problem stating that what I believe is what I believe.
Now in reference to the topic, no one can be assured salvation if there is some standard by which man of his own will must meet in order to obtain it or retain it. No human, even the so called repeaters of absolute truth, can measure up, that is why salvation is of God and no one else. It is God who brings that assurance because he will bring all to the point of meeting the standards.
Yet, you cannot explain those scriptures that contradict your belief and clearly show that faith can be lost. Your only response seems to be that they never had faith to begin with, which a contradiction to the scripture again. (Galatians 5:4 Hebrews 6:6) Galatians even uses the terminology you use "separated from Christ" and you acknowledge those in that condition "will spend eternity in the lake of fire". You have turned a blind eye to those scriptures or created interpretations that cannot even be seen in the clear message as written in the Bible. For instance, which verses of Hebrews 6:1-8 talk about sacrifice? Which verses talk about "works" being the subject? Your presented interpretations are just not present in the words or context of the scriptures.
You acknowledge that salvation is gained through faith but then cannot be lost by lack of faith. People cannot have a change in heart?
There is this reality that you cannot face. Some people lose their faith and renounce Christ. The "Once saved, always saved" belief fails in that real world application. You cannot say they never did have faith that would put you in a position of claiming you could judge their heart. We have the two cited scriptures in this post that show it is possible to fall away.
If you truly believe faith is required for salvation, how can you deny the absence of faith is not deserving of judgment. You don't, except in the instance of those who have already proclaimed their faith and then renounce it.
Do you suggest that once someone has been saved they have lost their free will and are no longer capable of denying their faith in the future?
Repeating your previously posted bad interpretations does not address these topics. It is just evasion.
The loss of faith does not mean the loss of salvation. You've understood nothing of what I have said. I have explained Heb 6. And Galatians 5:4 is simply saying that turning to the law is turning away from grace. It does not imply a loss of salvation. Being severed from Christ means to be alienated from Christ. It refers to a believers lack of temporal fellowship with Christ. Not a loss of eternal relationship.
A person who has never placed the full weight of his faith in Christ in response to the gospel message, but instead put his faith in works, was never saved. If he gets straightened out in his thinking and comes to understand the issue and puts the full weight of his faith in Christ he will then be saved. A person who did put the full weight of his faith in Christ in response to the gospel is saved even if at some later point he becomes confused and starts thinking that he must work for his salvation.
Revelation 2:5 is simply saying that if the church at Ephesus did not return to it's original motivation of serving God out of love rather than just because it is right, then the light of her witness in Ephesus would be extinquished. It is not a reference to loss of salvation.
God cannot go back on His word. God has said that His gifts are irrevocable. That means that God cannot take them back. Eternal life is a free gift. It is received through faith alone. Once you have it you have it forever.
Jesus never said that witnessing was the lamp.... that is the "all" argument of UR in a different form. The "Lamp" is the Word .. the Word creates faith
Jesus warns the he will take the lampstand away because of unrepentant sin, just like he instructed Matthew 18:15-20
God isn't going back on his word ... OSAS theology claims that He will.
Revelation 2:5 "If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place."
1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith ......
Jesus never implies "once in the vine always in the vine"
John 15:4
Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine.
John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;
Jesus own words refute OSAS, nor does Jesus never say that one who doesn't remain faithful never had faith to begin with.
That is just the pure attempt to have God's word fit the human conclusion rather than letting the word speak for itself.
John 15:6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us;
Jesus does not say ... If anyone does not remain in me, he is saved anyway or they didn't have faith to begin with so.....
God is faithful to his word otherwise he is not faithful to himself. God does not save those who reject him ... either outright at the beginning or those who do so later on.
John 15:6
2 Timothy 2:12
Revelation 2:5
2 Peter 2:20-21
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (coming to faith)and are again entangled in it and overcome,
they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Last edited by twin.spin; 11-30-2011 at 12:47 PM..
Reason: spacing problems
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