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Hi Illene. I think whatever happens it going to take a lot of patience and surrounding yourself with people you won't always agree with.
I recently met a Pastor who believes mostly in UR., but is a bible inerrantist (though he takes many things metaphorically or symbolically like the actual length of time creation took since He is was also a geology major in College) who was a huge skeptic of actual demon possession (much like myself) until he actually had to cast out several from a few people and had much of his denominational theology thrown into question. From his description of his faith before, it almost sounded like he was a Christian deist as far as how God interacts with people, but he ended up with God being very active in his life and those close to him and too many things happened that he couldn't dismiss as being pure coincidence even though it was his instinct to do so.
Its amazing how God uses different people for different things they would never have expected or believed before. I can't speak much from personal experience, but don't discount the possibility that he will work in your life in a way you can't deny or dismiss.
Ilene, I want to respond but I need to point some things out first. I am not being nit-picky, but rather I'm trying to get you to see what I see from your words. thereby you can know why i'm saying what i'm saying...
You say that Since becoming agnostic and losing my faith ... and then in the next paragraph you say, you had such strong faith, it was unshakable.
Well, i see this as an issue. It was obviously shakable. You lost your faith. Unshakeable means you will not lose it.
Psalm 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be shaken.
Yeah it's an issue. What I meant was at the time, when I was a fundamentalist Christian, there was absolutely no way to shake my faith. Ask anyone on this board who knew me then. I honestly do not know what happened. I think it all started when I began questioning the eternal torment thing because it never made sense to me at all. Then came the journey into Universalism, which was very enlightening and I will never be convinced again that there is any such thing as ET.....it's just not the way a loving God would operate.
I began seeing all the contradictions in the Bible and there is no reconciling them, it's just not consistent and that's the reality of it. I don't even know how to begin to believe that the Bible is anything other than a book full of writings of men FOR men, and that disturbs me because it's been proclaimed to be "the word of God". I don't see that, especially in the OT. Maybe I will again but I know now that I don't have to believe all of the Bible to believe in a God or Jesus Christ.
Speaking of Jesus, that is one area where I feel torn.....I truly loved him when I was a Christian but now I'm not even sure if he was real. It's a nice story and I even cried when the "Passion of the Christ" came out but I know now that to believe all of this it takes faith, which I don't have at the moment. How could I possibly believe in Jesus if I don't believe in God? Makes no sense.
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Sometimes i think we want to think what we have is incorruptable... but oftentimes we find the adverse is true. Ilene, Peter is a great example of someone who found, many times in fact, that his faith was not what he thought it was. There is nothing wrong with that. It is something we all go through. You are not alone.
I know, and that's why I keep coming back to C-D to vent because no one in my life except for a few friends knows that I'm agnostic....it's just not feasible to tell family when it's all so up in the air. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a full-blown atheist rather than agnostic simply because I would have made a decision about all of this.
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When i read this i smiled. because something very similar happened to me while i was teaching my teen class one wednesday night. a young girl in my class is really good about inviting people she knows to church. The visitor was very courteous and attentive, but i asked a question to the class (can't remember the question), but no one answered at first. i asked her directly, because she seemed like she had something to say... and she said, "I'm an atheist."
well as you might imagine, my lesson was over and i was off and running on this. I said, "well, then you are in the right place."
she had never told anyone in such a public place. she said she wanted to tell her parents but couldn't... and that being in a class with a bunch of people she didn't know actually made it easier. the girl that brought her was embarrassed after class and I told her not to be. Christ came to seek and save the lost and that is EVERYBODY. I never saw the girl since. I tried to friend request her on facebook but nothing yet.
You should have said something. I think that since you say you wanted to proclaim it, you wanted them to know. "to see the shock on their faces"... I'm not really sure that's why you wanted to...
I may be off-script here, but if you were a strong atheist, i'd have no problem believing that... but since you went to this bible study because it seemed like the right thing to do... that seems a little self-defeating. I think, based on what you say, that you wanted to say that so they could offer help. The fact that you didn't tells me that you are not ready for their help yet. You are waiting for the answer for yourself and posting here. Again... if i am wrong, then i deeply appologize. Please don't think me rude, Ilene.
No, I don't think you're rude, just wrong. I wanted to say it because I haven't been able to and I really need to. I don't know what I'm looking for right now, all I know is that I needed something familiar and calm to be a part of, it's doesn't really have so much to do with religion or Christianity. As a matter of fact, I've been contemplating attending a nearby Unitarian Universalist fellowship simply to surround myself with hopefully some decent people and be a part of something, rather than nothing. Something that's not going to shove Christianity down my throat yet is spiritual in nature and calming.
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This sounds like an atheist statement to me, given my experience with them. Richarddawkins.net and personal face-to-face. They want a sign of God's power, existence, etc.
John 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples were saying to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”
The atheists i talk to are offended when i compare them to an apostle. now, i know that Thomas was an apostle and thereby a great man and Christian, but he is also a great example of one wanting a sign to validate a belief.
26 After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
i hope you do not wait for a sign... They are not coming. the next sign will be accompanied with trumpets.
It IS an atheist statement, that's why I said I was agnostic/atheist because I have been leaning further and further towards atheism. I know it's hard to understand but if you participate a little in the atheist/agnosticism sub-forum you will begin to understand a little what I'm talking about. I'm not waiting for a "sign", I stopped that a long time ago. But I am in search of concrete evidence for a "god" and neither Christianity or science is providing that. I guess I'm looking for a certain kind of feeling or emotion that a holy spirit would provide, if there is one. It would be easy to say/speak that ok, I choose to believe regardless of evidence but my heart and mind won't let me do that. It would not be sincere and a god would recognize that.
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believers don't look at God as a support system to make them feel better. God isn't an ATM machine that better not be overdrawn or i'm switching banks. There is Joy in Christ, but that Joy comes after the tribulations we go through here. Don't ever let anyone tell you that Christians are happy all the time and never have problems. I'm sure you realize that that is not true. like you said, you didn't have a charmed life... me neither. But even when the trials get me down, i know the promises of God. And the faith... Eph 6:16 ...taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
The shield is the part that takes the most abuse. It needs to be strong. I think you want that. I think that's why you went to the bible study. I think you were looking for a way back in. I think you were there to see if there was something there for you. And if you shield has taken so much abuse that you can barely keep ahold of it... It might be time to start swinging the sword. to me, that is why the bible study seemed like the right thing to do. Eph 6:17... sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
I really beg to differ on the bolded statement above. Oh yes they do, and they should. What good is a god if you can't turn to him in times of need? Isn't that what they are supposedly for? Support, love and understanding? And you're very wrong about why I went to the Bible study.....as I stated before I went simply for a change of scenery and some peace. I know because I was a Christian all of my life that there was something there for me, but it takes faith. And right now I see that as totally "blind" faith in nothing, because there's just no evidence that any of it is real. I think I can get the same support, spirituality and love from a UU fellowship rather than a "church" and the UU's don't care what I believe or don't believe.
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you can't be both. from what you have written, i think you are an agnostic... now for me to say you are a good agnostic, might sound like a crazy thing, but you are a fine agnostic. you are in the middle... unsure which is right. that's what agnosticism is. You are not an atheist. You may be one day, but not when you posted this...
Uh, yeah you can be both. Like I said, I know it's hard to understand but take a look-see at the AA forum and you might learn a thing or two. They are not evil devil worshipers, they're just people like you and me who are struggling to understand things and need evidence like I do.
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Prayer is not magic. it is statements like this that make me think that you are leaning toward atheism. I'd like to help, but also am not sure what you need from me or anyone. I'm confused if you are wanting help to keep you from going farther toward atheism, or not.
one more time, if i have mis-interpreted your wording, i am very sorry. I hope you forgive me if i have. I am willing to talk further. and I will pray for you, but there will be no magic involved.
Well that's the way I view "prayer", or how it should work anyway. To me it's a waste of time and energy and you might as well pray to an elephant, at least the elephant is real and might be able to do something to help you. They're pretty smart you know. I don't really need anything, just a way to get things off my chest since I have no one in rl to talk to about all of this. I appreciate the prayer offer and I hope that someday the prayers will actually work. I'm not against that.
Those are real good questions Lantern, and I'm not sure I have an answer for you. It was a process and I just started to question everything and see the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Bible and elsewhere and realized one day that there is absolutely no concrete evidence for a God. It's all about faith, and I lost it. Without faith there is nothing. Actually, science doesn't explain the universe and why we're here either so I don't buy the whole "big bang" thing as an explanation so I don't know where I stand any longer.
Christianity and "churchianity" just don't make any sense anymore. I suppose I could just "choose" to believe but that wouldn't be sincere at this point. I'm going to expose myself to Christians/believers to see what happens. I don't know what else to do right now because what I'm doing is not working.
As humans, we all need to find our own path and peace of mind. If believing in religion gives you comfort and security, then that's the path you choose. For others, there's the path of questioning and doubting. It's all part of a journey. Keep yourself open to new knowledge and understanding.
BTW, what about the big bang explanation don't you buy?
Last edited by BigCityDreamer; 05-02-2012 at 10:12 AM..
Hi Ilene. When I read your post, what came to mind was that you could start at the very beginning in trying to decide if there's a God...the very beginning of you. You know how babies just accept the world around them without any questions, but then when they get a little older they decide they want some answers? One of the first questions they have when trying to figure out this thing we call life is, "Where do babies come from?" They usually don't need or want all the details, but they find comfort in knowing they came from their mommy and daddy.
Anyway, my point is, in trying to decide if there's a God, maybe you could look deeper than just how you got here, but Who made you? How did Ilene come into being? Was it an accident that each cell came together in just the right way to form you? Could it just be an accident that you love and are loved by others? I think just starting with those basic questions and not worrying about doctrine or the bible just yet, will help you to establish if you do or do not believe God exists, and then you can go from there with more questions.
I hope you'll find the answers and peace that you need very soon, and that the troubles you're facing right now will soon be in the past.
Psalm 139:
For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;[b]
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 05-02-2012 at 01:03 PM..
As humans, we all need to find our own path and peace of mind. If believing in religion gives you comfort and security, then that's the path you choose. For others, there's the path of questioning and doubting. It's all part of a journey. Keep yourself open to new knowledge and understanding.
BTW, what about the big bang explanation don't you buy?
Hey BCD, yes we all do need to find our own way in this world, and for me right now I've decided to try a UU fellowship to hopefully get what I need at this point in time. It's supposed to be religion-free or at least filled with people who aren't trying to convert you or change you in some way so I'm hoping it's not going to be a disappointment. It's a start, and I've just got to make myself do it. I'm sick and tired of being in my own head about all this with no one to talk to.
Well.....I just can't wrap my head around all of the glorious and wondrous things around us, including us, coming from nothing. And to me, the big bang theory is just that.....a "nothing" theory that makes no sense, or no more sense than Christianity anyway. Sorry, I've looked into it and as it stands right now I'm just as lost and confused about our origins as before. It's why I can't completely discount a creator and I remain agnostic.
The Big Bang Theory, formulated by a lay-catholic christian Scholar, is not about the beginning of existence, but the beginning of current matter and time. Mathematically speaking, TIME could not have existed during the singularity but only after the expansion (big bang) began. It's not an Ex nihilo Hypothesis, It is an Ex materia hypothesis, because at the beginning of the Big Bang the SINGULARITY existed. The big bang didn't happen in the past, it continues to happen even today. That is why the Big Bang Theory is accepted as that, because the evidence of expansion is seemingly obvious. Stephen Hawking only RECENTLY created an Ex nihilo mathematical formula for how Universes can arise from quantum fluctuations. The usual saying is that "out of nothing(ness), nothing comes" but I prefer to see it as "out of nothingness, nothing stops the coming of something". The Philosopher of Sacred Theology, Buddha, had good points against the monotheists (usually panentheists) in his day... but he realized that you can't disprove God.
Don't worry, I would go to Bible Study too, studying religions is fun to me, Its like studying poetry and stories that some people believe to be true. I feel like, to me, its like studying cultural heritage but with the twist of a controversy.
Studying Religion with the UU might bring you peace, you will find many common concepts among various religions. The Bible is no longer suited for you but it doesn't mean you have to demean or abandon its good qualities also, but it was your stepping stone into a wonderful reality where agnosticism cannot be destroyed. However, I am wondering what you talked (listened) about during Bible study too. and I'm also wondering how your loved ones will handle your trip into the UU. Fret not; You know that if a benevolent God exists, all good will be saved! But if such a Power is unwilling, or incapable, then live merely with your conscious as a martyr for a benevolent cause. However, I don't see anyone flaying you here, other than yourself. Perhaps the burden of your new views (and keeping them to yourself) has grown heavy. If that is so, the UU might help, as long as you know how to mingle or the Procter is willing to listen to you.
The Big Bang Theory, formulated by a lay-catholic christian Scholar, is not about the beginning of existence, but the beginning of current matter and time. Mathematically speaking, TIME could not have existed during the singularity but only after the expansion (big bang) began. It's not an Ex nihilo Hypothesis, It is an Ex materia hypothesis, because at the beginning of the Big Bang the SINGULARITY existed. The big bang didn't happen in the past, it continues to happen even today. That is why the Big Bang Theory is accepted as that, because the evidence of expansion is seemingly obvious. Stephen Hawking only RECENTLY created an Ex nihilo mathematical formula for how Universes can arise from quantum fluctuations. The usual saying is that "out of nothing(ness), nothing comes" but I prefer to see it as "out of nothingness, nothing stops the coming of something". The Philosopher of Sacred Theology, Buddha, had good points against the monotheists (usually panentheists) in his day... but he realized that you can't disprove God.
Don't worry, I would go to Bible Study too, studying religions is fun to me, Its like studying poetry and stories that some people believe to be true. I feel like, to me, its like studying cultural heritage but with the twist of a controversy.
Studying Religion with the UU might bring you peace, you will find many common concepts among various religions. The Bible is no longer suited for you, but it was your stepping stone into a wonderful reality where agnosticism cannot be destroyed. However, I am wondering what you talked (listened) about during Bible study too. and I'm also wondering how your loved ones will handle your trip into the UU. Fret not; You know that if a benevolent God exists, all good will be saved! But if such a Power is unwilling, or incapable, then live merely with your conscious as a martyr for a benevolent cause. However, I don't see anyone flaying you here, other than yourself. Perhaps the burden of your new views (and keeping them to yourself) has grown heavy. If that is so, the UU might help, as long as you know how to mingle or the Procter is willing to listen to you.
I'm no scholar Luminous so I don't fully understand what you're saying about the big bang theory but I guess I know enough to make a decision about it (whew, finally something) and that decision is that I don't accept it as an explanation for time, space, matter or existence. Maybe if I were more scientifically minded I would see it differently but I'm not so there it stands.
And to be quite honest I was among friends/family at the bible study and the conversation turned to my troubles more than anything else. Psalms was read and there was some discussion about walking with the "Lord" and continually asking for forgiveness for sins that have already been forgiven because of not being able to forgive ourselves and guilty consciences.
If there is a God I suppose he would be quite irritated to hear prayers over and over about the same thing when it is stated in the bible that you only need to ask once and then you are forgiven. But the question then was what if you make the same mistake or commit the same sin again.....is it already forgiven because of the first time you asked or do you need forgiveness again? I politely listened and nodded my head but it's mind-numbing ridiculousness like this, among many other things, that has brought me to agnosticism.
And as far as my family.....well until I find out what the UU fellowship is all about then I don't think there is any reason to share with them what I'm doing. After all, they still don't know that I'm agnostic. It's quite personal to me but if there comes a time when I need to share it then I will. For now though it's my little secret. Thank goodness for the anonymity of C-D.
I went to Bible study!! Why? I don't know really, it seemed to be the right thing to do and I haven't been doing much of that lately. Something is not right here and I've got to get to the bottom of it. Since becoming agnostic and losing my faith my world has crumbled into ruins....I mean it's really really bad. I can't go into detail but it's sending me back to take another look at why this is happening. Is there a God and if there is, is he trying to tell me something? WHAT!!??
When I was a Christian I had such strong faith, it was unshakable. How do I get that back when the Bible seems so incredulous to me now? I even think I actually have become atheist because I stopped believing in God completely. Where do I go from here? Am I crazy? Not that I ever had a charmed life or anything before I became agnostic but it sure was better than this.
I felt comfortable tonight and at ease. I always enjoyed Bible study but I wanted to blurt out "hey! There's an atheist amongst you!!" and see the shock and horror on their faces. But I didn't. I just listened. I guess I was waiting for a "sign" or some tiny little inkling that God actually does exist and he actually cares what happens to me. Didn't happen. I actually long for the days of the ignorant bliss of being a believer. What will it take to convince me? My prayers never ever got answered in the past but I have to say that as a believer life was better and more settled. Now it's just a whirlwind of heartache and disaster that has nearly put me over the edge.
I'm not a very good agnostic/atheist I guess. I don't even know why I'm posting this, just thought it was sorta weird that I went to bible study. And I don't really know what I expect from you guys as far as responses because I'm at a loss myself. Maybe you could use your little prayer magic and give me some answers?
I have no doubt that God exists as I can feel something move through me at times in service and out. The Scriptures call him the Holy Spirit.
The Lord sometimes works to bring people low in an effort to bring you to him. This is what happened to me. So maybe this is it. Humble yourself and ask God to show himself to you. Don't resist his Spirit.
I have a question Ilene. Was your faith based on the Bible or your relationship with God?
I ask this as an Evangelical Christian. I have seen more than one person reject God's existence, because they perceived problems with what was in the Bible.
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I wanted to say it because I haven't been able to and I really need to. I don't know what I'm looking for right now, all I know is that I needed something familiar and calm to be a part of, it's doesn't really have so much to do with religion or Christianity. As a matter of fact, I've been contemplating attending a nearby Unitarian Universalist fellowship simply to surround myself with hopefully some decent people and be a part of something, rather than nothing. Something that's not going to shove Christianity down my throat yet is spiritual in nature and calming.
Why? I don't know really, it seemed to be the right thing to do and I haven't been doing much of that lately. Something is not right here and I've got to get to the bottom of it. Since becoming agnostic and losing my faith my world has crumbled into ruins....I mean it's really really bad. I can't go into detail but it's sending me back to take another look at why this is happening. Is there a God and if there is, is he trying to tell me something? WHAT!!??
