Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Those of you readiing this, refer to post #215. You either understand it, or you don't. But it has been made clear enough. And yes, read the links. They are there to provide information.
Wow...That is all you have to refute the Sciptures of what HaShem Himself stated?...
Of course Pharaoh resisted Moses' request for all the slaves to be released into the desert. They were a pretty cheap source of labor for all the building projects in the country. I believe that after a few of the plagues he offered to let the men go, or the adults if the children stayed, in effect, he wanted to assure the return of his slaves. Can you imagine ANY world ruler who would not resist that idea at first from a 'god' he doesn't even know. According to their behavior so often after they left, the slaves didn't know much about their own Savior either.. So, yes Pharaoh would naturally deny and refuse the first request. BUT, he did decide to let them go LONG BEFORE the last plague and it is then that the Lord hardened his heart, probably much to the consternation of his Egyptian subjects who were suffering terribly from the plagues.
So is this our loving God? Because we refuse to hear his offer of grace 5 or 6 or 100 times He then says, it's the end? I'm going to harden your heart so you CANNOT hear or accept my offer? Does that seem logical. Don't the churches preach that you can go to Him even at the moment of death so isn't this a contradiction of what we hear so often from the pulpit....that Pharaoh was a hard hat in the beginning so now he has no chance to repent of his own 'free will' but must be damned because of what any natural ruler would have done to protect his nation's interest?
There are two words for WILL. One is thelema and one is boulema.
Thelema is Strong's word 2307. It is defined as will, wish, desire. According to Help's word studies it often refers to God's 'preferred will' i.e. 'best offer' to people which can be accepted or rejected. The 10 commandments and other laws given to Israel are an example of God's thelema. It was conditional. There were blessings if Israel obeyed and curses if they disobeyed, all of these relating to their state in THIS world. When God sent Moses to Pharaoh with the command to let the Hebrews go into the desert to worship it was a thelema type of command. It could be rejected by Pharaoh.
But there is another word for WILL. This is boulema and is Strong's #1012. This is defined as: will, counsel, PURPOSE. A pre-set, fully resolved plan. The feminine noun-cognate, 1012, occurs 12 times for the brand of RESOLUTION. 012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.
This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!
[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]
It was the thelema will of God for Pharaoh to allow the slaves to go out in the desert. BUT it was his BOULEMA will for Pharaoh to refuse and for the world to see the power of God alone to secure the freedom of the slaves.
It was God's boulema will for Jesus Christ to be crucified on the cross. There was no human possibility for it NOT to happen. The universe operates by God's boulema will. He lets his thelema will be known but then uses humans to oppose that in order for the boulema, his ultimate plan and purpose, to occur. This is the Will that no man can resist. How else would the statement in Romans make sense to ask who has resisted God's will? God's thelema will has been resisted from the beginning of creation. You would need pages and pages to list the names of Biblical characters who resisted the thelema will of God beginning with Adam and Eve. But in all that, God's boulema will is on exact schedule to accomplish the purpose that can not be thwarted by any other will in the universe.
God is not sitting helpless, watching and hoping for a positive result. He has a purpose and a plan and it WILL be brought to fruition exactly as he intends.
Many will think it unfair and impossible to harmonize our ability to resist God's thelema will and yet not be one hairsbreadth out of his Boulema will. But will you say to the Potter, why did you make me thus? For a time, there is apparent opposition to His will. But in due season, at the proper time, we will all not only be subject to His boulema will but will also willingly, in our very heart, joyfully be obedient to his thelema will. These two wills will overlap. Every knee will bow and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of the Father.
Last edited by ScarletWren; 12-08-2012 at 11:29 AM..
Of course Pharaoh resisted Moses' request for all the slaves to be released into the desert. They were a pretty cheap source of labor for all the building projects in the country. I believe that after a few of the plagues he offered to let the men go, or the adults if the children stayed, in effect, he wanted to assure the return of his slaves. Can you imagine ANY world ruler who would not resist that idea at first from a 'god' he doesn't even know. According to their behavior so often after they left, the slaves didn't know much about their own Savior either.. So, yes Pharaoh would naturally deny and refuse the first request. BUT, he did decide to let them go LONG BEFORE the last plague and it is then that the Lord hardened his heart, probably much to the consternation of his Egyptian subjects who were suffering terribly from the plagues.
So is this our loving God? Because we refuse to hear his offer of grace 5 or 6 or 100 times He then says, it's the end? I'm going to harden your heart so you CANNOT hear or accept my offer? Does that seem logical. Don't the churches preach that you can go to Him even at the moment of death so isn't this a contradiction of what we hear so often from the pulpit....that Pharaoh was a hard hat in the beginning so now he has no chance to repent of his own 'free will' but must be damned because of what any natural ruler would have done to protect his nation's interest?
There are two words for WILL. One is thelema and one is boulema.
Thelema is Strong's word 2307. It is defined as will, wish, desire. According to Help's word studies it often refers to God's 'preferred will' i.e. 'best offer' to people which can be accepted or rejected. The 10 commandments and other laws given to Israel are an example of God's thelema. It was conditional. There were blessings if Israel obeyed and curses if they disobeyed, all of these relating to their state in THIS world. When God sent Moses to Pharaoh with the command to let the Hebrews go into the desert to worship it was a thelema type of command. It could be rejected by Pharaoh.
But there is another word for WILL. This is boulema and is Strong's #1012. This is defined as: will, counsel, PURPOSE. A pre-set, fully resolved plan. The feminine noun-cognate, 1012, occurs 12 times for the brand of RESOLUTION. 012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.
This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!
[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]
It was the thelema will of God for Pharaoh to allow the slaves to go out in the desert. BUT it was his BOULEMA will for Pharaoh to refuse and for the world to see the power of God alone to secure the freedom of the slaves.
It was God's boulema will for Jesus Christ to be crucified on the cross. There was no human possibility for it NOT to happen. The universe operates by God's boulema will. He lets his thelema will be known but then uses humans to oppose that in order for the boulema, his ultimate plan and purpose, to occur. This is the Will that no man can resist. How else would the statement in Romans make sense to ask who has resisted God's will? God's thelema will has been resisted from the beginning of creation. You would need pages and pages to list the names of Biblical characters who resisted the thelema will of God beginning with Adam and Eve. But in all that, God's boulema will is on exact schedule to accomplish the purpose that can not be thwarted by any other will in the universe.
God is not sitting helpless, watching and hoping for a positive result. He has a purpose and a plan and it WILL be brought to fruition exactly as he intends.
Many will think it unfair and impossible to harmonize our ability to resist God's thelema will and yet not be one hairsbreadth out of his Boulema will. But will you say to the Potter, why did you make me thus? For a time, there is apparent opposition to His will. But in due season, at the proper time, we will all not only be subject to His boulema will but will also willingly, in our very heart, joyfully be obedient to his thelema will. These two wills will overlap. Every knee will bow and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of the Father.
Try reading the account of Exodus in the Hebrew...Pharoah resisted Moses because HaShem said that he would... why?.. Because HaShem Himself said that He would harden Pharoahs's heart...Why?...So that he would not listen...Why?...So that HaShem could work great wonders and His name would be proclaimed...
This one below is the word used in the Septuagint at Isaiah 9:6, where it states wonderful councellor (Advisor)...This would imply that it has nothing to do with 'the will'...
G1012
βουλή
boulē
boo-lay'
From G1014; volition, that is, (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose: - + advise, counsel, will.
G2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.
You should have looked at G2309, because that is the one used in Romans 9...
G2309
θέλω, εθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and εθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).
G1014
βούλομαι
boulomai
boo'-lom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will", that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare G2309.
I stll haven't seen anyone give an answer for Isaiah 7:14-16 yet...
IS 7:14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." God Himself calls the Son Immanuel which in the Hebrew means God with us. Jesus is proclaimed by God Himself to be God with us.
That Pharaoh hardened his own heart is stated in 1 Samuel 6:6 ''Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? When He had severely dealt with them, did they not allow the people to go, and they departed?
Concerning the fact that Pharaoh first hardened his own heart before God further hardened it, refer to these articles on the matter:
Wow...That is all you have to refute the Sciptures of what HaShem Himself stated?...
You are a Calvinist who believes that God does not desire to save everyone but has predestined certain people to be eternally condemned apart from any volition on their part. You believe that Jesus did not die for everyone.
But God has always allowed man to exercise free moral agency as shown in Deuteronomy 30:19. "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
As was shown in post #213, man first hardens his own heart as seen in passages such as Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28 and 2 Thess.2:8-12.
Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, ... 24]Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them ... 26]For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ... 28] And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
2 Thess. 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9] that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10] with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved [they rejected the gospel by which they might be saved] 11]For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12] in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Therefore, God gave them over; For this reason God gave them over; For this reason God will send; << These are all based on man's negative volition. And so it was with Pharaoh who first hardened his own heart in opposition to God's command to free the Hebrews.
Whereas God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart in Ex. 9:12 10:27; 14:4, 8, 17;Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart in Ex. 8:15, 32; 9:34. And in Ex. 7:13, 22; 8:19; 9:7, 35 it is said only that Pharaoh's heart was hardened without reference to who hardened it.
And again, 1 Sam. 6:6 states that Pharaoh and the Egyptians hardened their own hearts.
Contrary to the Claims of Calvinism, God respects man's volition and does not harden anyones heart apart from their own negative volition toward Him.
Try reading the account of Exodus in the Hebrew...Pharoah resisted Moses because HaShem said that he would... why?.. Because HaShem Himself said that He would harden Pharoahs's heart...Why?...So that he would not listen...Why?...So that HaShem could work great wonders and His name would be proclaimed...
This one below is the word used in the Septuagint at Isaiah 9:6, where it states wonderful councellor (Advisor)...This would imply that it has nothing to do with 'the will'...
G1012
βουλή
boulē
boo-lay'
From G1014; volition, that is, (objectively) advice, or (by implication) purpose: - + advise, counsel, will.
G2307
θέλημα
thelēma
thel'-ay-mah
From the prolonged form of G2309; a determination (properly the thing), that is, (actively) choice (specifically purpose, decree; abstractly volition) or (passively) inclination: - desire, pleasure, will.
You should have looked at G2309, because that is the one used in Romans 9...
G2309
θέλω, εθέλω
thelō ethelō
thel'-o, eth-el'-o
Either the first or the second form may be used. In certain tenses θελέω theleō thel-eh'-o (and εθέλέω etheleō eth-el-eh'-o) are used, which are otherwise obsolete; apparently strengthened from the alternate form of G138; to determine (as an active voice option from subjective impulse; whereas G1014 properly denotes rather a passive voice acquiescence in objective considerations), that is, choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication to wish, that is, be inclined to (sometimes adverbially gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism to delight in: - desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, -ling [ly]).
G1014
βούλομαι
boulomai
boo'-lom-ahee
Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will", that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare G2309.
Not sure where we differ all that much. The command from Moses to Pharaoh was that God wanted to let HIS people go into the desert to worship Him which Pharaoh did initially deny of his own will. But before Moses even went God told Him that He would harden his heart. But I think in the beginning Pharaoh would have laughed in Moses face at the thought that slaves would be allowed to wander away, don't you? AFTER the first plagues I'm sure Pharaoh couldn't wait to obey whatever this god who brought plagues upon him requested but it is THEN that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't let the people go so that God's power and majesty and HIS PURPOSE would be performed. In the end, the Israelites, as well as a host of friends left Egypt, but it was always God's plan to have Pharaoh resist his thelema will in the beginning until the point was reached that this Boulema will of actually having them leave was enacted. But it was His plan that Pharaoh not let them go until the very last plague was sent.
If these two wills weren't different then it would be true that the thigs of earth are running contrary to God's will, but this would be against scripture which states that nothing in heaven or earth could stop His will from coming to pass. That is his boulema will, the ultimate purpose and for a time we are permitted, even destined to resist his thelema will but it all will result in God's boulema will being accomplished, regardless of our will.
I am quite at a loss of words because I cannot understand this double talk thing:
First you say faith is non meritorious which means, according to your own words...you can take no credit for having.
Then you say faith comes from you....so now I presume I can take credit for it again.
And then you say the credit goes to Jesus Christ.
So my questions is does my faith come from me that I can take credit for it or does it come from Christ that he take credit for it. Which one is it?
You error in thinking that because faith comes from you, it means that you take credit for your salvation.
Faith does come from you in response to the gospel by which under the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit the unbeliever is convicted of the sin of unbelief, of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8-11), and no, you cannot take any credit for it. Faith in Christ is depending on Him, rather than depending on yourself.
You must do the believing (John 3:16; Acts 16:30,31).
And yet Eph. 2:8,9 makes it clear that you cannot boast as a result of having been saved through faith rather than as a result of works. In other words, you cannot take any credit for trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Grace is all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the cross. The merit is not in the faith but in the object of faith which with regard to eternal salvation is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ gets the credit. Not man. Faith in Christ recognizes that you can do nothing, and can take no credit for salvation, but that all the merit, all the credit goes to Christ. Faith in Christ means that you are not trusting in anything that you can do to earn eternal salvation.
I showed back in post #47 that Eph. 2:8,9 does not refer to faith as a gift from God, but that it is salvation which is the gift. People can go back and read it or not.
I was supposed to have been done with this subject with post #77. Hopefully now, I will be.
Mike 555 and you choosing by your own will is not taking credit for your own salvation ?
No, Mike didn't come to earth without sin and then die on a cross bearing his sin or the sin of anyone else. Only one came to do that and he deserves all the glory and credit. Believing in Christ's atoning work on the cross is not taking any credit. How can one take credit in something that transpired 2000 years ago? Mike thinking that he goes to the right church, has the right theology, can quote scripture better than anyone else... thinking that any of those things gets him an inside track with God, now that would be taking credit for his own salvation. But believing? It is what we are called to do to be saved.
I don't see why this is so difficult to comprehend. But then again I haven't been taught Calvinism FIRST and then how to twist scriptures to come up with this skewed theology. No one reads the scriptures on their own and comes up with TULIP. They are taught it by someone who already holds this viewpoint.
No, Mike didn't come to earth without sin and then die on a cross bearing his sin or the sin of anyone else. Only one came to do that and he deserves all the glory and credit. Believing in Christ's atoning work on the cross is not taking any credit. How can one take credit in something that transpired 2000 years ago? Mike thinking that he goes to the right church, has the right theology, can quote scripture better than anyone else... thinking that any of those things gets him an inside track with God, now that would be taking credit for his own salvation. But believing? It is what we are called to do to be saved.
I don't see why this is so difficult to comprehend. But then again I haven't been taught Calvinism FIRST and then how to twist scriptures to come up with this skewed theology. No one reads the scriptures on their own and comes up with TULIP. They are taught it by someone who already holds this viewpoint.
Saying you did anything is taking credit, only Christians seem to have a problem understanding this. I chose, I believed , I found, I sought is nothing but taking credit, especially when scripture clearly states he chose, sought and found .
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
