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Old 07-10-2013, 10:36 PM
Status: "Schooling Fundie." (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
^No, man's Fall apparently started essentially about 10,000 years ago.
Man has never fallen without getting back up.

That, more than anything, makes us what we are - blessed in more ways than most of us can recognize.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Why not? God placed Adam in a finished work. The world you see today is not a world shaped by God's hands. It is the result of the fall of man. The world you see today is the best man can do over 6000 or so years. So to say it doesn't make sense for man to live in the garden of Eden forever is doubting God to create a place well enough to be our home forever. For all we know the garden of Eden was infinitely more glorious than any city you see today. Just outside of the garden was a place filled with gold. If a place outside the garden was filled with gold what do you suppose was in the garden?
If God had created man in a perfect state with no suffering then the creation would be imperfect. Imagine how bring it would be to play golf and get a birdie in every hole. Or take tests in school and always get an A. The creation is perfect because MAN has to struggle.

The creation is perfect because God gave man free will. And because of free will there cannot be a perennial garden garden of perfection.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jghorton View Post
but, it was necessary to set-up a world in which true choices and consequences (such as the choice to love or not love) were established.
Exactly!!!
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post

The creation is perfect because God gave man free will. And because of free will there cannot be a perennial garden garden of perfection.
Right,we can't be children forever,andmost of us appreciate that in spite of some nostalgia.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:49 PM
 
Location: In a state of Grace
796 posts, read 674,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
Q. "Why did God curse the ground/earth at Adam and Eve's fall from grace?

I can understand why He cursed the serpent (Gen. 3:14), Satan (3:15), the woman (3:16) and Adam (3:17-19) for their part in the disobedience, but why the ground itself?

Genesis 3:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

[SIZE=3]17 [/SIZE]And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
[SIZE=3]18 [/SIZE]Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
[SIZE=3]19 [/SIZE]In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Genesis 3:17-18

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. 18. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shall eat the herb of the field;"

This is all a result of the curse. Before Adam sinned there were no thorns, and briars, and such. Everything was perfect! But when sin came in the curse just literally ruined everything. Remember everything in this world that is a problem, goes all the way back to the curse, and it will never end until the curse is lifted, and of course it will be, we think one day very soon, at the return of Christ.
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:09 PM
 
794 posts, read 653,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
If God had created man in a perfect state with no suffering then the creation would be imperfect. Imagine how bring it would be to play golf and get a birdie in every hole. Or take tests in school and always get an A. The creation is perfect because MAN has to struggle.

The creation is perfect because God gave man free will. And because of free will there cannot be a perennial garden garden of perfection.
Ah but you see this is carnal thinking. Do you think we were ever supposed to have golf courses, schools, militaries, hospitals, highways, stores and everything else that has been done by man's hands? Of course not. God never intended for man to find his fulfillment through the works of his hands. God wanted man to be fulfilled in the supply of His grace, love and blessings. God created man to enjoy all that He had made. So all of those things you mentioned of being imperfect to creation and existence never even existed in the first place. Its all man's pursuit to perfection and fulfillment in a world that says you're never done. You cannot compare this world to the world God made and intended for man to live in. Its a fallen world handed over to the hand's of men. No one knows how glorious and perfect the world was in the beginning but what we can know that since God is sovereign in His power we cannot argue against the fact that it was made perfect.
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Old 07-11-2013, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,453 posts, read 14,316,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joint heir with jesus View Post
Q. "Why did God curse the ground/earth at Adam and Eve's fall from grace?

I can understand why He cursed the serpent (Gen. 3:14), Satan (3:15), the woman (3:16) and Adam (3:17-19) for their part in the disobedience, but why the ground itself?

Genesis 3:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

[SIZE=3]17 [/SIZE]And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
[SIZE=3]18 [/SIZE]Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
[SIZE=3]19 [/SIZE]In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Despite the other responses, this is real and not an allegory.

Why? Good question. I don't think the Bible states why.

I do think the ground is linked to Adam's (and our) physical body. Remember that Adam was made in the image of God - which includes body, soul, and spirit. The soul and spirit were not cursed. So maybe it was a means of punishment and separating Himself from sin while allowing for redemption through Jesus Christ. So our current bodies return to the ground. We get new resurrected bodies at the proper time. Just my two cents - nothing official.

But the fact that the ground is cursed is clear.

Genesis 5:29
- Now he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed."

The results from this curse are the fact that we have to work to eat. That did not seem to be the case for Adam and Eve before they sinned.

Other notes...

  • Cain's offering from the ground was rejected by God... because the ground was cursed.
  • Jesus' body with regards to His death never went into the ground. He came from above... lived... died and put in a tomb... defeated death... rose to return to heaven. The ground never consumed his body like every other sinful person... because the ground is cursed.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:26 PM
 
Location: kS.
505 posts, read 463,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Where does it state that Satan was in the Garden?...

Genesis 3:15

Amplified Bible (AMP)

[SIZE=3]15 [/SIZE]And I will put enmity (hostility) between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel.

The woman mentioned in Gen. 3:15 is a reference to the virgin Mary, whom Satan will not see for about 1700 years. This verse contains prophecy.


(and between your offspring and her Offspring This references Matt. 13:38- the explanation of the parable of the tares and wheat (Matt. 13:24-30)_
(Matthew 13:24-30

King James Version (KJV)

[SIZE=3]24 [/SIZE]Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[SIZE=3]25 [/SIZE]But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
[SIZE=3]26 [/SIZE]But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
[SIZE=3]27 [/SIZE]So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[SIZE=3]28 [/SIZE]He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
[SIZE=3]29 [/SIZE]But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
[SIZE=3]30 [/SIZE]Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.)


Matthew 13:38

King James Version (KJV)

[SIZE=3]38 [/SIZE]The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

"He will bruise and tread your head underfoot"- The seed of the woman is of course, Jesus the Christ, the Messiah,; the savior of the world who will utterly and eternally defeat Satan at the cross.


"...and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel." This refers to the temporary suffering inflicted upon Jesus at and just before the cross of Calvary.

Of course Satan was in the garden... he engineered the fall of man.
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Old 07-11-2013, 07:39 PM
 
8,832 posts, read 6,359,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Ah but you see this is carnal thinking. Do you think we were ever supposed to have golf courses, schools, militaries, hospitals, highways, stores and everything else that has been done by man's hands? Of course not. God never intended for man to find his fulfillment through the works of his hands. God wanted man to be fulfilled in the supply of His grace, love and blessings. God created man to enjoy all that He had made. So all of those things you mentioned of being imperfect to creation and existence never even existed in the first place. Its all man's pursuit to perfection and fulfillment in a world that says you're never done. You cannot compare this world to the world God made and intended for man to live in. Its a fallen world handed over to the hand's of men. No one knows how glorious and perfect the world was in the beginning but what we can know that since God is sovereign in His power we cannot argue against the fact that it was made perfect.
OK, if you were to create MAN. How would you do it?

I think God created MAN perfectly.

Please describe this other world you talk about. The current creation is perfect as it is.
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Old 07-11-2013, 08:01 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,411 posts, read 20,158,886 times
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It doesn't say that God cursed the ground. The ground cursed is the effect of Adam listening to something other than the voice of God.

Cursed is the ground because of you.Gen 3:17
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