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I think a person can be saved and still be afraid of death. The day you become saved, you don't lose all your old habits or ways all at once. Being a christain is a work in progress and your faith grows and get stronger as you progress through reading the bible, going to church, fellowshipping with other believers, and your prayers. As you get stronger in your faith old habits eventually start to fall by the wayside one by one. If you been saved for the last 20 or 30 years or longer, i'm sure you are rock solid in your faith vs a person who just got saved or only been saved a short period of time. The disciples of JESUS were all afraid when the sea of galilee got rough, they thought they were going to drown. Some saved people are stronger in their faith and not everybody is on the same level of Christianity at the same time. Also keep in mind we are still of the flesh and the flesh is weak and its in our human nature to be afraid of the unknown. I believe you can be afraid but yet still be accepting of death with the understanding to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.
Christians are all in various stages of 'being conformed and transformed by the renewing of their minds.' Therefore, many retain varying degrees of fear and anxiety...until they mature in the Spirit.
There is no more 'justification' for the dogmatic statement that "anyone who fears death is not a Christian" ... than for any 'blanket determination' of whether a person is/is not a Christian, based on observed behavior. For example, a Christian may 'fear' the death-process/pain' (eg, cancer or other traumatic or painful malady) ... yet, have no fear of what comes next ... or fear that they might not enter into eternal life.
The "eternal separation" argument has a certain logic, but, overlooks a pivotal point. Only God is eternal! Man is a created being with a God-determined beginning! (One can certainly not argue that created, physical man is eternal!)
Thus, man's "eternal life" commences at some point following his creation. By God's design, that point is when he trusts/depends on Jesus Christ. However, since man has an entire natural lifetime during which to trust/depend on Christ, ... man's 'eternal separation from God' does not commence until his physical/natural death finalizes his choice NOT to trust/depend upon Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.
All who live in this world without Jesus Christ are already 'lost and condemned' and deserving of 'eternal separation' from God. BUT, Christ died that all 'might' attain Salvation and Eternal life through Christ. That attainment, however, is not automatic and requires the exercise of one's God-given knowledge of God and 'faith to believe and trust in Jesus Christ' (although man's work or effort, of course, 'adds' nothing to God's finished work of Salvation).
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
That says nothing there about death being eternal separation.
I think a person can be saved and still be afraid of death. The day you become saved, you don't lose all your old habits or ways all at once. Being a christain is a work in progress and your faith grows and get stronger as you progress through reading the bible, going to church, fellowshipping with other believers, and your prayers. As you get stronger in your faith old habits eventually start to fall by the wayside one by one. If you been saved for the last 20 or 30 years or longer, i'm sure you are rock solid in your faith vs a person who just got saved or only been saved a short period of time. The disciples of JESUS were all afraid when the sea of galilee got rough, they thought they were going to drown. Some saved people are stronger in their faith and not everybody is on the same level of Christianity at the same time. Also keep in mind we are still of the flesh and the flesh is weak and its in our human nature to be afraid of the unknown. I believe you can be afraid but yet still be accepting of death with the understanding to be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.
The Bible is showing that indeed fear of death is to be in bondage to it. You can't have both life and death. Two masters cannot be served. I believe God is calling me to overcome this fear but right now I know for certain that I'm not in a "saved" state. If so, I wouldn't that that fear.
Christians are all in various stages of 'being conformed and transformed by the renewing of their minds.' Therefore, many retain varying degrees of fear and anxiety...until they mature in the Spirit.
There is no more 'justification' for the dogmatic statement that "anyone who fears death is not a Christian" ... than for any 'blanket determination' of whether a person is/is not a Christian, based on observed behavior. For example, a Christian may 'fear' the death-process/pain' (eg, cancer or other traumatic or painful malady) ... yet, have no fear of what comes next ... or fear that they might not enter into eternal life.
The "eternal separation" argument has a certain logic, but, overlooks a pivotal point. Only God is eternal! Man is a created being with a God-determined beginning! (One can certainly not argue that created, physical man is eternal!)
Thus, man's "eternal life" commences at some point following his creation. By God's design, that point is when he trusts/depends on Jesus Christ. However, since man has an entire natural lifetime during which to trust/depend on Christ, ... man's 'eternal separation from God' does not commence until his physical/natural death finalizes his choice NOT to trust/depend upon Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior.
All who live in this world without Jesus Christ are already 'lost and condemned' and deserving of 'eternal separation' from God. BUT, Christ died that all 'might' attain Salvation and Eternal life through Christ. That attainment, however, is not automatic and requires the exercise of one's God-given knowledge of God and 'faith to believe and trust in Jesus Christ' (although man's work or effort, of course, 'adds' nothing to God's finished work of Salvation).
Can you agree that the Bible shows that people that fear death are subjects to it?
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
These verses are showing the following:
1.) The devil has the power of death
2.) That through fear of death people were in bondage.
3.) That people therefore in fear of death are under the power of the Devil.
Therefore, how can anyone that is under the power of the Devil = saved?
When it gets right down to it, I think that most Christians probably don't fear death. Dying, however, is another matter. There is generally fear associated with anything that might be painful. If someone that I knew to have a strong belief in Christ told me that he was afraid of death, I'd probably assume that he meant he was afraid of the process, not the result.
If your fear dieing, are you really currently in the "saved" state?
Can you really call yourself "saved" at this time if your still in fear of death? Wasn't Jesus mission to remove us from the power of death? If we are fearful of dieing then we are still under the bondage of death which comes by the power of death and means that the Devil still has power over us:
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
2COR 7:5 "For, when we were come into Macedonia, our flesh had no rest, but we were troubled on every side; without were fightings, within were fears." Seems that Paul had times of fear but he was also delivered from those fears. Many a Christian has also experienced temporary fears but God also comes to the rescue.
Temporary setbacks, temporary loss of faith, and temporary fears are no measure that you are a Christian. Salvation is ongoing and does not depend on you but on the Lord, not feelings and emotions which come and go like the wind..
If you fear death . . . you are still saved. If you don't fear death . . . you are still saved. WE have nothing to do with whether or not we are saved! Christ did that part for us. We are responsible for our own sanctification under His love and grace. We do that by following His direct instructions to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. Everyone who DOES that attunes their Spirit to Christ's Holy Spirit (Comforter) and receives the cover of His perfect agape love through resonance (some imperfect harmonic). Death is the end of our "spiritual pregnancy" . . . and we are reborn as Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
The bible shows that we are not all saved at this time. Meaning not all in a state of "saved". You can't serve two masters and to be under bondage to death (of which I am), I cannot also say that I'm saved. This doesn't negate the understanding that all will eventually be saved. But it speaks to the current state of the majority of us. Remember that Faith is the ACCESS to Grace. If someone doesn't have Faith, then they surely do not have the Grace.
I know we disagree, trettep . . . but it is because no one actually believes Christ saved us. They think that what we must do somehow affects whether or not we are saved. It doesn't! NOTHING we do affects whether or not we are saved. Christ took care of that, period. He is the Savior . . . not us. We DO have a responsibility to take full advantage of Christ's achievement . . . sanctification. The words you use, faith, grace, etc.,etc. just reflect a confused understanding of our responsibility to achieve the state of agape love (as imperfect as it may be) . . . so that our Spirit will be in resonance (some imperfect harmonic) with Christ's perfect agape love for us all. That is how we achieve the cover of His grace for our imperfections. It is not some magic derived from saying the right things or claiming to believe the rights things. We have to actually achieve that inner conviction of "love of God and each other" . . . however imperfectly. It is simple physics . . . not magic or the caprice of God or Jesus.
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