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I have noticed that 101c and Twin Spin seem to have the same mistaken view of their reading of scripture. As they seem to see it . . . the way they read and understand it is the way God intended us to read and understand it, period! It is a fairly common failing of human nature. I have also noticed that they do not allow questions or reasoning to enter their interpretations. That is why the OP's question will soar right over their heads. They try to draw no parallels and make no conclusions about the reasonableness of what they have been taught to think about God. To the un-indoctrinated . . . it is a reasonable question and reveals the absurdity of the idea that God required such a horrendous scourging and crucifixion before He could forgive us. Sadly such reasoning and rationality is useless against unreasoning credulity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevelationWriter
- God Did Not Come In The Flesh AS Jesus.
"The Word Became Flesh" The Word did not become God-Himself.
Only "IN The Beginning" "WAS" God's Word With Him As God.
But once God sent His Word, His Word Became Flesh, His Word Is His Son. Not Himself.
"Equal With God" - John 5:18 - Phil.2:6
"The Only Begotten God" - John 1:18 (Greek)
Jesus said, "I and The Father are one."
That's One + One Equals Two. Not Three.
Jesus said, "I and The Father are one.
Jesus did not say. The Father and I are God.
- Why should we Honor The Son Just AS we Honor The Father (?)
Not because God-Himself is Jesus.
But because "The Father Has Committed All Judgment To The Son THAT All Should Honor The Son JUST AS They Honor The Father." -John 5:23,24
~ The Catholics Teach A False trinity doctrine about The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
I realize that for many Christians these seem to be crucial issues, They are NOT. God is Spirit . . . or in modern terms. . . pure consciousness manifesting as agape love. Jesus brought God's pure consciousness of agape love to His human consciousness. That is how He and the Father are one. When you know the "mind of Christ (consciousness of Jesus) you know God. It is no big mystery and requires no special nonsense like hypostatic unions or kenosis (or hydromatic transmissions or hypnosis)!!! Someone had to bring the consciousness of God to human consciousness. Jesus did it. He was our designated hitter. Now all human consciousness is connected to God through the human consciousness (Holy Spirit/Comforter) of Christ. THAT is how He is the ONLY WAY to God. No magic, no hypostatic nonsense, no judgments required. We will reap whatever we sow . . . but none of it will be judgments or punishments from God . . . just consequences.
The site never allows me to rep you, Mystic. So here's a thumb.
I wish to ask you though, do you believe the Divine Consciousness a.k.a. God, is personal?
If not, then the Godhead is pretty much like the Brahman in hinduism, no? (there are still different ideas about the personality of Brahman, but the concept is always gender-neutral)
From Wikipedia:
In order to attain salvation (liberation), a human being must acquire self-knowledge (atma jnana), which is to realize that one's true self (Ātman) is identical with the transcendent self Brahman. and
While Brahman lies behind the sum total of the objective universe, the human mind boggles at any attempt to explain it with only the tools provided by reason.
The personal God is impersonal reality reflected upon the mirror of ignorance and illusion.
In the early Vedic religionBrahman was the name given to the power that made the sacrifice effective, << like Mosaic sacrifices?
The later Vedic religion produced ideas that Brahman is the one Absolute Reality behind changing appearances. The sages made their pronouncements on the basis of meditative experience and direct knowledge. << like the Spirit and Law of Christ, written in our hearts?
I'm not suggesting Christians are/should be worshipping the ultimate hindu God, or vice versa. But I am suggesting that there's some of the Truth here, and some there.
I also think we are all heretics, more or less. From God's point of view.
2 RevelationWriter, you said that, "God Did Not Come In The Flesh AS Jesus". well please tell us who God came in the flesh as?. name please.
and two, you said, "Only "IN The Beginning" "WAS" God's Word With Him As God". are you saying that there are two separate God's, if his word, (God), was "with" him(God). Yes or No. if yes please explain.
"But once God sent His Word, His Word Became Flesh, His Word Is His Son. Not Himself". so you're saying that the son was sent, right. Ok, please explain to me this scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you". now RevelationWriter, who "came", the "Father", or the "Son"/Word. think long and hard before you answer that, because there is no Saviour beside God "himself", see Isa 43:11 and Isa 45:21
- There was no Only Begotten Son Of God Until God's Word Became Flesh.
Look in Gen. God spoke by His Word things into existence.
God had no Son to do that. Just by speaking God did it Himself.
The Word Of God created. Not The Son Of God.
- The Jews understood that Jesus saying He was The Son Of God made Himself Equal With God.
Which is also what Jesus Disciples proclaimed as well. - Phil.2:6
Their understanding wasn't that Jesus said He was God Himself In the flesh.
(This is purely a catholic doctrine.)
The Jews sought to kill Jesus because He made Himself Equal With God. - John 5:18
They said Jesus made Himself God. Not that Jesus made Himself their "Only True God".
Jesus told them that in their Law it was written that He (as The Word Of God) said
they are Gods Too. - John 10: 31-35
Jesus didn't say He came to show them that He was their God In The Flesh As Jesus.
but that as The Word Of God was Sent to show them The Father.
For The Father sent His Word That Became Flesh.
"
He called them gods to whom The Word Of God Came..." - John 10:35
Jesus said to His Father, "And This IS Eternal Life THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
And Jesus Christ Whom You Sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work You gave Me to do. And now O Father Glorify Me TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." - John 17
John said, "No one has seen God at anytime. The Only Begotten God Who Is In The Bosom Of The Father, He Has Declared Him." John 1:18 (Greek)
As for Is.35:4 The Dead Sea Scrolls 1,000 yrs earlier than any known 'bible' is quoted this way.
"Be strong, do not fear, see your God will bring vengeance,
He will bring divine recompense to save you."
- The catholic/protestants can explain the trinity with scripture.
But they can not quote scripture that says it.
That why they use the disclaimer of the trinity being such "A Mystery".
The mystery is that the trinity doctrine about The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit is not scripture.
That's pure conjecture on your part, Eusebius. There's absolutely no evidence that's what happened. The idea that Jesus had to loan sinners "grace" on account against His future death is totally absurd, sorry to say. But there's plenty of man-made theology in there. That's the problem with fundamentalism--90% of it derives from "doctrines of men, making the gospel of no effect".
This reminds me of Matthew 8:16-17 that says Jesus healed everyone to fulfill Isaiah 53. But Isaiah 53 refers to the crucifixion. However, at the time of Matthew 8, He didn't go to the cross yet.
- There was no Only Begotten Son Of God Until God's Word Became Flesh.
Look in Gen. God spoke by His Word things into existence.
God had no Son to do that. Just by speaking God did it Himself.
The Word Of God created. Not The Son Of God.
- The Jews understood that Jesus saying He was The Son Of God made Himself Equal With God.
Which is also what Jesus Disciples proclaimed as well. - Phil.2:6
Their understanding wasn't that Jesus said He was God Himself In the flesh.
(This is purely a catholic doctrine.)
The Jews sought to kill Jesus because He made Himself Equal With God. - John 5:18
They said Jesus made Himself God. Not that Jesus made Himself their "Only True God".
Jesus told them that in their Law it was written that He (as The Word Of God) said
they are Gods Too. - John 10: 31-35
Jesus didn't say He came to show them that He was their God In The Flesh As Jesus.
but that as The Word Of God was Sent to show them The Father.
For The Father sent His Word That Became Flesh.
"
He called them gods to whom The Word Of God Came..." - John 10:35
Jesus said to His Father, "And This IS Eternal Life THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD,
And Jesus Christ Whom You Sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work You gave Me to do. And now O Father Glorify Me TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." - John 17
John said, "No one has seen God at anytime. The Only Begotten God Who Is In The Bosom Of The Father, He Has Declared Him." John 1:18 (Greek)
As for Is.35:4 The Dead Sea Scrolls 1,000 yrs earlier than any known 'bible' is quoted this way.
"Be strong, do not fear, see your God will bring vengeance,
He will bring divine recompense to save you."
- The catholic/protestants can explain the trinity with scripture.
But they can not quote scripture that says it.
That why they use the disclaimer of the trinity being such "A Mystery".
The mystery is that the trinity doctrine about The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit is not scripture.
GINOLJC, to all
2 RevelationWriter,
#1. you did not answer my very first question. “tell us who God came in the flesh as?. name please. please
#2. then you said, “There was no Only Begotten Son Of God Until God's Word Became Flesh”. we all know that. but since you made the statement, what is the WORD name that was with God?, please answer.
#3. then you said, “God had no Son to do that. Just by speaking God did it Himself. The Word Of God created. Not The Son Of God.”.
that’s double talk, because God created. see Isa 45:18, and 45:12, and 42:5. if God himself did it, (which he did), then A. the Word of God is God himself,(proven in John 1:1), and your whole point is moot. or B. The WORD , according to you is someone else. because in post #178 you said, “The Word Became Flesh" The Word did not become God-Himself.Only "IN The Beginning" "WAS" God's Word With Him As God”. again that's double talk. but if you say that the WORD is a separate person then your whole point is moot again, because you now have two separate Gods, and that’s polytheism. so either way you go, your point is moot.
#4. then you said, “ The Jews understood that Jesus saying He was The Son Of God made Himself Equal With God.Which is also what Jesus Disciples proclaimed as well. - Phil.2:6”
well that’s the first true statement you made so far. but we already know that, so no points there.
#5. then you said, “Their understanding wasn't that Jesus said He was God Himself In the flesh. (This is purely a catholic doctrine.) The Jews sought to kill Jesus because He made Himself Equal With God. - John 5:18They said Jesus made Himself God. Not that Jesus made Himself their "Only True God".
well you did good on #4. but now you went down hill. A. their understanding was, that Jesus is saying that he is God in flesh. and the Jews knew that there is “ONLY ONE GOD”. they did not take it that he was a GOD, but they took it as he is the ONLY God “in flesh”. see the Jewish Shema on that, read Matthews 22:34-37.and B. that’s no catholic doctrine, that’s bible, God in Flesh.
#6. then you said, “Jesus told them that in their Law it was written that He (as The Word Of God) said they are Gods Too. - John 10: 31-35”
Now that a RevelationWriter, false doctrine there. not Gods, but gods, as judges. LOL, LOL, LOL. boy, oh boy. anyway..... I guess this was to set up #7, (smile).
#7. you said, “Jesus didn't say He came to show them that He was their God In The Flesh As Jesus. but that as The Word Of God was Sent to show them The Father. For The Father sent His Word That Became Flesh.
RevelationWriter, here, you have a problem. if the WORD is not God himself, and you say that the WORD is a GOD. then again you have two Gods. and again that’s polytheism, (TWO GODS). scripture, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God”. did you notice the chaptalization of the “G” in God. meaning that no God is with him, or beside him as in your claim. you claim that the Word, (who is separate) was with God in the beginning creating everything, well scripture say different. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself”. Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else”. he, he, he, is the work of one person, not two. so again your point is moot.
#8. Jesus said to His Father, "And This IS Eternal Life THAT THEY MAY KNOW YOU THE ONLY TRUE GOD,And Jesus Christ Whom You Sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work You gave Me to do. And now O Father Glorify Me TOGETHER WITH YOURSELF WITH THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH YOU BEFORE THE WORLD WAS." - John 17
read the scripture carefully, and in context. who is the ONLY TRUE GOD?. well JESUS give us the answer, “And Jesus Christ Whom You Sent”. did you see the “AND” there?. I guess not. he identify the one God, elohiym, who is a plurality, and that’s JESUS Christ the shared spirit in flesh”. as the Psalmist put it “The LORD, (God the Spirit), said unto my Lord, (God the shared Spirit in flesh, the offspring), sit on my right, Psa 110. lets make it plain for you to understand. the Lord Jesus said, “to Know thee”. ok, scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. while our Lord was speaking to Nicodemus on EARTH, he was in HEAVEN at the same time. lets see who they know, or rather did not know. John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things”. RevelationWriter, who is the “he” that they should know?. lets see, back up to the 23 verse, "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins”. again RevelationWriter, who is the “he” that they should believe in?. answer, Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I”. that is God almighty speaking. and in John 8 that is God almighty in flesh speaking there too. the same person only shared. now, lets go back to John 17 and understand that the only true God is in flesh, and that is Jesus the Christ. so again your point is moot.
#9. John said, "No one has seen God at anytime. The Only Begotten God Who Is In The Bosom Of The Father, He Has Declared Him." John 1:18 (Greek)
man how simple it that. one must know the Son of Man, vs, the Son of God. Oh well.....
#10. As for Is.35:4 The Dead Sea Scrolls 1,000 yrs earlier than any known 'bible' is quoted this way. "Be strong, do not fear, see your God will bring vengeance, He will bring divine recompense to save you."
I had to laugh at that. look, listen, and learn. scripture,Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour”. if God is the ONLY saviour as Isa 43:11 points out. then is it God who came in flesh in Isa 35:4. that’ to simple to understand. read Isa 43:11 again. see, even the dead sea scrolls say your point is moot.
#11. The catholic/protestants can explain the trinity with scripture.But they can not quote scripture that says it.That why they use the disclaimer of the trinity being such "A Mystery". The mystery is that the trinity doctrine about The Father, The Son and Holy Spirit is not scripture.
well RevelationWriter, I’m not a trinitarian, or a unitarian either, so I’ll let them explain that. and two, it's no longer a mystery. listen, THERE IS NO TRINITY, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are titles of the same Spirit. no, I believe in the diversity of God as the allos, or the “ANOTHER” of God in flesh, bone, and with blood on earth. my belief is that our God shared himself, (phil 2:6), born of a virgin, (Isa 9:6), (took on flesh), not a partaker, but took on humanity to die a sacrificial death for the sins of the world.
I realize that for many Christians these seem to be crucial issues, They are NOT. God is Spirit . . . or in modern terms. . . pure consciousness manifesting as agape love. Jesus brought God's pure consciousness of agape love to His human consciousness. That is how He and the Father are one. When you know the "mind of Christ (consciousness of Jesus) you know God. It is no big mystery and requires no special nonsense like hypostatic unions or kenosis (or hydromatic transmissions or hypnosis)!!! Someone had to bring the consciousness of God to human consciousness. Jesus did it. He was our designated hitter. Now all human consciousness is connected to God through the human consciousness (Holy Spirit/Comforter) of Christ. THAT is how He is the ONLY WAY to God. No magic, no hypostatic nonsense, no judgments required. We will reap whatever we sow . . . but none of it will be judgments or punishments from God . . . just consequences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tzimtzum
The site never allows me to rep you, Mystic. So here's a thumb.
I wish to ask you though, do you believe the Divine Consciousness a.k.a. God, is personal?
If not, then the Godhead is pretty much like the Brahman in hinduism, no? (there are still different ideas about the personality of Brahman, but the concept is always gender-neutral)
Unlike the impersonal Brahman of Hinduism and the purely mechanical non-God karma of Buddhism . . . the Consciousness I encounter is multiple personalities . . . a multitude ("heavenly host"?) all of one Spirit . . . agape love.
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