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LOL, oh well. Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people”. see the word, “Laws”, see the “s” at the end. not the LAW, but his Law(s). you said, we do NOT have rules and regulations, ok, go out and commit murder, or how about committing Fornication, or adultery, wrath, strife, Jealousy, just to name a few. but I guess according to you it ok then?. now nateswift, do you lie, or may I say have you ever sin since you been in Christ?. that would answer that one. (smile).
you see Nate, our Lord Jesus is the Governor, and the Government is on his shoulders.
and as for why I'm in Christ. to miss death, the second one, if he don't return before I naturally die.
but I suggest you read, Romans, starting at chapter 1:18-32, just for starters. and then continue.
Just remember, if one is not in Christ one is in the world, and the world will be judge.
You do not think you will be judged?....you're in Moshiach in order to escape the second death?...Woowww!...
the Lord Jesus paid for our sins that are past, and his atoning sacrifice covers, and cleanses us from all unrighteousness, and sin. he redeemed us from the curse, and the law. he did not remove the curse, but redeemed us from it. (its your choice to walk in it). if one is not in him, then one still walk under the curse. Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God”.
now, for those who are in Christ, 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”.
Actually, it is you who is missing the point. The idea that retribution is a requirement of "justice" is a brutal and primitive perception, and it is at the heart of the "penal substitution" theory of Atonement that is so popular and which you are expressing in your explanations. My recommendation is that you look into other theories of Atonement, especially Christus Victor. Before you even comment, yes, contradictory views of the mechanism of Atonement seem to have been held by New Testament writers, which is why we need to test the scriptures in reason, testimony of saints and in the spirit of love.
I'm glad you recognize the brutality of penal atonement, nate. I was caught off-guard by your question to me and wasn't sure.
How I wish that Christians, who are woefully ignorant of how all this penal silliness came about, would just educate themselves. They would find that "ransom" is in the Bible but "satisfaction" and "penal" theories are not. They were invented by men--some, as in the case of John Calvin and Martin Luther, with severe socio/psychological issues bordering on mental illness--who, in my opinion (and others) were closet sado/masochists. How else do you explain a minister, appropriately named John Furnace (actually Furniss) writing a book for children entitled "The Sight of Hell". Here is a typical passage:
Quote:
Are not thy garments hot? Come into this room. You see it is very small. But see, in the midst of it there is a girl, perhaps about eight years old. What a terrible dress she has on—her dress is made of fire. On her head she wears a bonnet of fire. It is pressed down close all over her head; it burns her head; it burns into the skin; it scorches the bone of the skull and makes it smoke. The red hot fiery heat goes into the brain and melts it. Ezech. xxii. I will burn you in the fire of my wrath; you shall be melted in the midst thereof as silver is melted in the fire. You do not, perhaps, like a headache. Think what a headache that girl must have. But see more. She is wrapped up in flames, for her frock is fire. If she were on earth she would be burnt to a cinder in a moment. But she is in hell, where fire burns everything, but burns nothing away. There she stands burning and scorched; there she will stand for ever burning and scorched! She counts with her fingers the moments as they pass away slowly, for each moment seems to her like a hundred years. As she counts the moments she remembers that she will have to count them for ever and ever.
Parents were reading this stuff to little children. Psychological child abuse. Yet today, sadly, in the Southern Baptist territories, this guy would be lauded as a saint and a great writer. Some Christians just thrive on this kind of tripe. Penal atonement--invented by man to mentally torture weak-minded people for some sick satisfaction, maybe even a feeble attempt to save their souls, who knows, but certainly blissfully aware/unaware of the damaging effects on a person's psyche; causing them to either have a nervous breakdown, as many have testified to here, or just up and leave the Christian faith entirely as a form of mental self-preservation.
1 John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
detest: to feel abhorrence of; hate; dislike intensely.
the apostle Paul is a brother, and if one detest, or hate, then one is a murderer, according to the apostle John.
"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren”. well there goes that word “Love”.
LOL, oh well. Hebrews 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people”. see the word, “Laws”, see the “s” at the end. not the LAW, but his Law(s). you said, we do NOT have rules and regulations, ok, go out and commit murder, or how about committing Fornication, or adultery, wrath, strife, Jealousy, just to name a few. but I guess according to you it ok then?. now nateswift, do you lie, or may I say have you ever sin since you been in Christ?. that would answer that one. (smile).
you see Nate, our Lord Jesus is the Governor, and the Government is on his shoulders.
and as for why I'm in Christ. to miss death, the second one, if he don't return before I naturally die.
but I suggest you read, Romans, starting at chapter 1:18-32, just for starters. and then continue.
Just remember, if one is not in Christ one is in the world, and the world will be judge.
Try telling me what The Law of Love is. The point is that "the laws" would be better stated as "the principles" and it is because the principles of Concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation are "written on our hearts" that laws, rules and regulation are not required in the Body of Christ (they are civil government for the ones who need them).
Alright, I will do any or all of the things you listed and which I put in bold as soon as you tell me how I can do them in love. Yes, I do fail from time to time and I know that He is faithful and just to forgive me.
Try to remenber that His kingdom, at least at this point, is NOT a kingdom of the world and we are not trying to rein in the wicked, but guide those who love in how to best express it.
Wow, I'm sorry that all you are after in Christ is "pie in the sky," you could have SO much more.
Try telling me what The Law of Love is. The point is that "the laws" would be better stated as "the principles" and it is because the principles of Concern for the well-being of everyone in any situation are "written on our hearts" that laws, rules and regulation are not required in the Body of Christ (they are civil government for the ones who need them).
Alright, I will do any or all of the things you listed and which I put in bold as soon as you tell me how I can do them in love. Yes, I do fail from time to time and I know that He is faithful and just to forgive me.
Try to remenber that His kingdom, at least at this point, is NOT a kingdom of the world and we are not trying to rein in the wicked, but guide those who love in how to best express it.
Wow, I'm sorry that all you are after in Christ is "pie in the sky," you could have SO much more.
ok, lets put your LOVE to the test, "do you Love me, as a brother?", yes or no. and be truthful......
ok, lets put your LOVE to the test, "do you Love me, as a brother?", yes or no. and be truthful......
Indeed, and my sorrow that you have not come to the full awareness of the love of Jesus and how it works out in our lives is real. If I seem impatient at times it is because there are also those who need to see the difference and who can be misguided or supported in their misapprehension by expressions not consistent with the principles of love.
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