If Jesus Could Forgive Sins Without A Blood Sacrifice, Why Can't God the Father? (paradise, traditions)
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I have contemplated this question in one form or another at times and it was partly this question (and other things) that caused me to brand the penal atonement theology as being completely ridiculous. Yet I comprehend that the Church structure has needed to firmly grasped this dogma ever since the Council of Nicaea because it was part and parcel of the stranglehold they were determined to exert over people.
But the question still remains: Jesus was freely and completely able to forgive sins before His death without telling the person(s) to go to the temple and shed an animal's blood to make it complete. I don't read that Jesus ever said, "I forgive you, but you'll have to wait until I die before the forgiveness can really take effect. Technically, you're still in your sins, but you're first in line for forgiveness once My death is complete."
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But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins." Mark 2:10
No, Jesus, being One with His Father; being the Father personified on earth in the form of His Son, freely forgave sinners their sins without any conditions attached. So theoretically God possessed the capacity to forgive sin without requiring a blood offering to accomplish it and doing so didn't seem to compromise His sense of honor or justice.
So why does God require Jesus' blood to right the scales of sin now?
G-d is timeless. Jesus did it for people in the future, the past, everywhere. Did the blood of bulls and lambs really atone? Weren't all looking for the true Paschal sacrifice, across culture, race, language, time? Maybe we are stuck on the time thing, in our finite minds. There is history before Genesis. There will be history after Revelation. But this is concept of his-story / her-story is a human concept. Maybe when we are elevated we won't need history / hers-story. Timelessness may be relevant when we are not held by it.
God the father did come and have a blood sacrifice through His begotten Son which was created by a incarnation of God the Father ..... See the essence of God the Father made it impossible for Him to come and prepare a judgment which man who is separated from God could be redeemed of sin ................ Also the Levi Priest who were anointed had the authority to forgive sin which they did when a point of contact to God was given like a sacrifice of a lamb and bull , and doves and goats ............... Like from Leviticus 14 where the priest was called to many rules of cleansing which some were he would ``pour oil on the priest left hand and sprinkle seven times some of the oil before the Lord with His finger , then some oil on the right ear of the person to be cleansed and on his hand and his toe of his right foot then the rest of the oil on the head of the person to make an atonement of him before the Lord ...............Then he would have to sacrifice a dove or pigeons, as from Leviticus 14:26-29 ................still there are many more rules for different sins ................ See all these priest were anointed , where most people in the nations were just barely saved , even the prophets had a connection with God but Holy spirit would come and go and come and go to them ................................................ Jesus was anointed by the Temple of Lord Jesus Christ which was in complete unity with the Father God and His Holy Spirit ..............Even the Holy Angels of God the Father were almost literal absent in the gospels apart from the birth of Jesus and then later after the cross ... But they were indeed active through the Holy spirit ...... Christians today are anointed with the temple of Holy Spirit which Jesus Is the head , and Christians are the Body and can pray to forgive sin by asking forgiveness to the Lord , which will open the door for Jesus to bless people , but this still come from the blood of Jesus sacrifice ..... Then still Jesus said only Lord Jesus and Father God can forgive sin, where Christians need the blood of Jesus and the old Levi Priest needed the blood of bulls and lambs , and Holy Spirit cannot forgive sin but he can judge prayer and expectation to receive grace...
I have contemplated this question in one form or another at times and it was partly this question (and other things) that caused me to brand the penal atonement theology as being completely ridiculous. Yet I comprehend that the Church structure has needed to firmly grasped this dogma ever since the Council of Nicaea because it was part and parcel of the stranglehold they were determined to exert over people.
But the question still remains: Jesus was freely and completely able to forgive sins before His death without telling the person(s) to go to the temple and shed an animal's blood to make it complete. I don't read that Jesus ever said, "I forgive you, but you'll have to wait until I die before the forgiveness can really take effect. Technically, you're still in your sins, but you're first in line for forgiveness once My death is complete."
No, Jesus, being One with His Father; being the Father personified on earth in the form of His Son, freely forgave sinners their sins without any conditions attached. So theoretically God possessed the capacity to forgive sin without requiring a blood offering to accomplish it and doing so didn't seem to compromise His sense of honor or justice.
So why does God require Jesus' blood to right the scales of sin now?
Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God”.
God put an end to sin, that's his vengeances in Isa. 35:4. not on man, but sin. and a change in law was need.
Hebrews 10:9 "Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second”.
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So why does God require Jesus' blood to right the scales of sin now?
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there was no one worthy, so God did it himself. supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".
Isaiah 59:16 "And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him".
Jesus the Christ is God the Father, (shared) in flesh.
I still don't get how Jesus could freely forgive sin with no pre-conditions before His death. Presumably those sinners whom He forgave their sins, had they died before His own death, would have gone to that part of Hades where the righteous were waiting to be admitted to heaven upon Jesus' death. Those that did not receive Jesus' forgiveness would have gone to the other compartment of Hades where the fire is and suffered in torment for all eternity because they had refused to listen to Him when He was preaching.
This has nothing to do with Levites and Book of Hebrews. It's just a simple question:
Jesus, and thus God, had the power and the willingness and the ability to forgive sins without Jesus' sacrifice. If God the Father through Jesus could do it for them He can certainly do it for us today. It's not like God can only stretch His grace just this far for just a certain number of lucky individuals and then He runs out of grace--the rest need Jesus' blood to keep from staining God's honor/and or falling under His wrath. It's an all or nothing proposition. If He can forgive even one white lie without Jesus' blood having to cover it then He can forgive all the sin ever committed without Jesus' blood having to cover it. Jesus clearly demonstrated that His death was not needed for Him to be willing to forgive sin.
For some believers He doesn't, that's true, but it runs contrary to accepted theology of today. Any preacher worth His salt upon being confronted with this question will immediately say "without the shedding of blood (Jesus') there is no redemption". Which is not an answer, I realize, but what else has a preacher got to lock and load his gun against such heretical questions as mine?
I still don't get how Jesus could freely forgive sin with no pre-conditions before His death. .
was not the same grace, (forgiveness), offered to Adam in the Garden?.
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost".
1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief".
one cannot save their own self from sin.
Isaiah 1:18 "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool”.
why?, Isaiah 1:24 "Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies25 "And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
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Presumably those sinners whom He forgave their sins, had they died before His own death, would have gone to that part of Hades where the righteous were waiting to be admitted to heaven upon Jesus' death. Those that did not receive Jesus' forgiveness would have gone to the other compartment of Hades where the fire is and suffered in torment for all eternity because they had refused to listen to Him when He was preaching..
1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water”.
Paradise was on the other side of the the great gulf fixed that divided them, but after his resurrection , he moved Paradise, to another domain.
and the reason of his DEATH is,
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This has nothing to do with Levites and Book of Hebrews. It's just a simple question:..
Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
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Jesus, and thus God, had the power and the willingness and the ability to forgive sins without Jesus' sacrifice. If God the Father through Jesus could do it for them He can certainly do it for us today. It's not like God can only stretch His grace just this far for just a certain number of lucky individuals and then He runs out of grace--the rest need Jesus' blood to keep from staining God's honor/and or falling under His wrath. It's an all or nothing proposition. If He can forgive even one white lie without Jesus' blood having to cover it then He can forgive all the sin ever committed without Jesus' blood having to cover it. Jesus clearly demonstrated that His death was not needed for Him to be willing to forgive sin.
Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living”. that the reason why he died so that he came be the Lord of the Living as well as the dead. not just of the LIVING only, but the DEAD also. which some cannot understand.
Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God”. what about those sins of the future?. answer, 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness”
I think Jesus' ministry on Earth was, by design, to really throw everything on its head. You know, when you shake a glass, what is on the inside is going to come out. Jesus really brought out the best and worst, didn't he?
What's amazing is the few short years of his ministry he performed more miracles than could ever be recorded. And he asked different things of different people. One guy was required to put mud on his eyes. Mud from the nastiest river, if I don't have my stories confused. Blood sacrifice was EASY. It's what they did. He made them stretch. Giving away all his wealth? FAIL. He doesn't expect us to give away all our wealth but that particular man - that was his test. I wish all his miracles could have been recorded. You have to know he has a sense of humor.
I have contemplated this question in one form or another at times and it was partly this question (and other things) that caused me to brand the penal atonement theology as being completely ridiculous. Yet I comprehend that the Church structure has needed to firmly grasped this dogma ever since the Council of Nicaea because it was part and parcel of the stranglehold they were determined to exert over people.
But the question still remains: Jesus was freely and completely able to forgive sins before His death without telling the person(s) to go to the temple and shed an animal's blood to make it complete. I don't read that Jesus ever said, "I forgive you, but you'll have to wait until I die before the forgiveness can really take effect. Technically, you're still in your sins, but you're first in line for forgiveness once My death is complete."
No, Jesus, being One with His Father; being the Father personified on earth in the form of His Son, freely forgave sinners their sins without any conditions attached. So theoretically God possessed the capacity to forgive sin without requiring a blood offering to accomplish it and doing so didn't seem to compromise His sense of honor or justice.
So why does God require Jesus' blood to right the scales of sin now?
Dear thrill,
The gospel of Yeshua was about the kingdom. The using of the Passover lamb's blood over the lentils was an act of faith in which insured the householders to avoid the destroying angels. The kingdom of God (millenium) starts in somewhat the same manner, and those with the Spirit of God, which is denoted in the last supper as those who partake of the wine, which is imagery for blood and the Spirit. Those that have the Spirit of God, will be like those of Ezekiel 9:4, and will groan over the abominations in their midst, and will be marked, and the destroyers will pass them by. With 1/3 of the earth burned up (Rev 8:7) things will be rough, but the destroyers will bypass them. The salvation with respect to the Day of the Lord has to do with surviving the Great Tribulation, such as pointed out in Joel 2:31-32. As for the salvation of the "Christians", which is highly problematic, and ephemeral, that will be swept away with their other deceptions and falsehoods. (Isaiah 28:15-18 & Mt 7:26-27) They have turned away from heeding the message of Yeshua, to following the message of men, and in particular, false prophets.
The gospel of the cross is the gospel that Yeshua never taught, but it is a gospel taught by the self professed apostle and prophet Paul. Paul's gospel is one of babble, as it has it's roots in Babylon, and only results in confusion. Most of the traditions of the "Christian" church can be traced to the religion of Babylon. If one wants to understand the "Word of God", one must believe and heed the message of Yeshua, and the "Word", which does not include the babble of men and their traditions, supported by means of the power of Rome.
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