Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
the spiritual road
Isaiah 42:16 "And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them”.
NO, if you're not his Child. is that a straight answer?.
Yes, thank you. So I take it you find Biblical reasons for why Jesus could make exceptions to this rule of having to believe in Him for forgiveness of sins, because obviously some of the people He forgave didn't profess belief in Him.
Let's get this straight. Jesus went around forgiving sin without the shedding of blood, but God cannot?
There's something crooked about that to me.
You might need an ironing-board to straighten the wrinkles on a blood-stained garment.
Many want to protect their own outward appearance by covering their sin(s).
It's an extraordinarily well-crafted plan to sacrifice the innocent, instead of taking responsibility?
Let's get this straight. Jesus went around forgiving sin without the shedding of blood, but God cannot ? . There's something crooked about that to me.
pcamps, the children of Israel was in a blood covenant with God already, "UNDER THE LAW". so for his children, forgiveness is only needed, because the blood of goats, and calves was the covering. and remember, Jesus is God in Flesh. listen, Hebrews 9:19 "For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people”.
Exodus 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words”.
when one is in a relationship, (covenant), one only needs forgiveness. we was all by nature, sinners. when we came to Christ, his blood remit the sin, for his life, (natural) was the ransom for us to be redeemed. when one enter into a covenant relationship with him, if we sin, his blood covers us, (and we should not be sinning that much). but if we do sin, that's why we have an advocate, for if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, see 1 John 1:9.
forgiveness is based on Relationship. if one is a sinner without the blood of Jesus, then one needs their sins remitted.
I've considered your answer, 101c and I want to give you my analysis:
I believe Jesus' death benefitted me in some way; that belief, to me, is what the fundamentalists teach is belief in Christ---for the remission of my sins, if you want to get technical about it because it doesn't hurt me to believe in it so what have I got to lose, except maybe my salvation but that's another matter.
So I believe this but I do not believe that God demands that I believe that He was angry at me for my sins and that somehow, by believing Jesus' death benefits me in some mysterious way, suddenly all my sins are forgiven and God's anger at me somehow magically vanishes in a puff of smoke and I suddenly become a child of God. All that, to me, is childish nonsense.
Now Jesus forgave the paralyzed man his sins. Nobody ever asks, "What happened to the man afterwards? Certainly he committed more sins. Was Jesus' forgiveness only for the guy's sins up to that moment, or was it an all-time forgiveness that stretched for the next 30 years of the man's life right to the time he died?
Furthermore, if God can forgive this one man's sins then he can forgive mine, and pcamps, and DewDrops, and, yes, even Mike555's though I realize that's a tall order. So because God is no respecter of persons, what He grants one he is obliged out of His sense of justice to grant to all.
So I see nothing wrong with expecting God to give me a free pass like He gave the paralyzed man. That seems fair, doesn't it? Or does God act by His own rules apart from what we here on earth would consider decent, just and fair?
So, to reiterate, I see no problem with God being able to forgive us our sins without the need of believing Jesus' death was an atonement for our sins and that we must believe in Jesus as our savior in order to tap into that forgiveness. Perhaps when John says that Jesus said, "He that believes on the Son has life" John merely meant that believing that Jesus' death proved how much God loves us is "believing on the Son" and sufficient for salvation. After all, John never clarifies exactly what we're supposed to believe in order to get life; he just says, "He that believes on the Son has life." Without injecting your own fundamentalist theology into it, what exactly does "believing on the Son" mean? And if you say, "I can't explain it without getting into fundamentalist theology" then I say, "You're absolutely right. You cannot."
pcamps, the children of Israel was in a blood covenant with God already, "UNDER THE LAW". so for his children, forgiveness is only needed, because the blood of goats, and calves was the covering. and remember, Jesus is God in Flesh. listen, Hebrews 9:19 "For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people”.
Exodus 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words”.
when one is in a relationship, (covenant), one only needs forgiveness. we was all by nature, sinners. when we came to Christ, his blood remit the sin, for his life, (natural) was the ransom for us to be redeemed. when one enter into a covenant relationship with him, if we sin, his blood covers us, (and we should not be sinning that much). but if we do sin, that's why we have an advocate, for if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, see 1 John 1:9.
forgiveness is based on Relationship. if one is a sinner without the blood of Jesus, then one needs their sins remitted.
Yes they were under a blood covenant, but tell me this, if they were under a blood covenant of forgiveness, why was it necessary for Jesus to say to the paralyzed man "you're sin are forgiven" ?. Even the teachers of the law said you cannot go around forgiving sin like that , only God can do that and not without the process of sacrifice. This thinking comes from a God up in the sky that demands to be worshipped and appeased.
I've considered your answer, 101c and I want to give you my analysis:
I believe Jesus' death benefitted me in some way; that belief, to me, is what the fundamentalists teach is belief in Christ---for the remission of my sins, if you want to get technical about it because it doesn't hurt me to believe in it so what have I got to lose, except maybe my salvation but that's another matter.
first off, thanks for the consideration of my answer. my prayer is this. that the Lord may open your eyes as to what you have considered in my answer. peace be with you.
Yes our Lord death benefitted you in this way. if you come to him and believe. your sins are remitted. NO FORGIVEN. if not why come to Jesus at all?. salvation is in him ONLY.
Quote:
So I believe this but I do not believe that God demands that I believe that He was angry at me for my sins and that somehow, by believing Jesus' death benefits me in some mysterious way, suddenly all my sins are forgiven and God's anger at me somehow magically vanishes in a puff of smoke and I suddenly become a child of God. All that, to me, is childish nonsense.
God have never been angry at any person, only angry at the sin. look God told Noah to build a ship. and preach to the people. God provided a way, and the people rejected it, just as Jesus was rejected. miss Jesus, you have missed the boat. God already knew that man would sin. that's why he came in flesh to save us.
Quote:
Now Jesus forgave the paralyzed man his sins. Nobody ever asks, "What happened to the man afterwards? Certainly he committed more sins. Was Jesus' forgiveness only for the guy's sins up to that moment, or was it an all-time forgiveness that stretched for the next 30 years of the man's life right to the time he died?
I believe I have already answered that, last post, "blood covenant", that yearly atonement made that possible, with the Lord Jesus, only once, (the shedding), was needed.
Quote:
Furthermore, if God can forgive this one man's sins then he can forgive mine, and pcamps, and DewDrops, and, yes, even Mike555's though I realize that's a tall order. So because God is no respecter of persons, what He grants one he is obliged out of His sense of justice to grant to all.
yes there is a tall order for some here, but was we not in that order ourselves, and God saved us?. but you're still missing the point here. one must be in a covenant relationship first. as a sinner you have no covenant right for forgiveness with God. one must become his child. listen, God call sinners to repent, and confess Jesus as Lord. God never call a sinner to confess his sins, in order to be saved. No, one must confess Jesus. then one's sins are remitted. scripture, Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God". the key word here is "sins PAST". as a sinner when one come to Jesus, and confess him. his sins are remitted. not forgiven.
lets see something. if a sinner is to only confess his sins that are past, could one do that?. no, because one cannot even remember what they was doing last week, and surely not on January 6th 2014 at 4 pm. say that you was sinning. could you remember what sin you was committing, NO. and if one get slick and say, I just ask for forgiveness everyday. want work. why?, because one is not a child of God. listen as to who a child of God is. Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed”. see one must be “BORN AGAIN”. Israel, under the LAW, it only keep them clean until Jesus came and fulfilled all the requirements of the Law. in your natural state without covenant, or a covering, you're not his child, and have no rights to God. again Jesus is the BOAT. he's the ONLY way.
Quote:
So I see nothing wrong with expecting God to give me a free pass like He gave the paralyzed man. That seems fair, doesn't it? Or does God act by His own rules apart from what we here on earth would consider decent, just and fair?
the rules are the same for everyone under the new covenant, get on the boat.
Quote:
So, to reiterate, I see no problem with God being able to forgive us our sins without the need of believing Jesus' death was an atonement for our sins and that we must believe in Jesus as our savior in order to tap into that forgiveness. Perhaps when John says that Jesus said, "He that believes on the Son has life" John merely meant that believing that Jesus' death proved how much God loves us is "believing on the Son" and sufficient for salvation. After all, John never clarifies exactly what we're supposed to believe in order to get life; he just says, "He that believes on the Son has life." Without injecting your own fundamentalist theology into it, what exactly does "believing on the Son" mean? And if you say, "I can't explain it without getting into fundamentalist theology" then I say, "You're absolutely right. You cannot."
in order to tap into that forgiveness
let me reiterate, forgiveness is a covenant right.
Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?. 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
well now you have heard. if you believe that you can be forgiven without coming to, and confessing Jesus as Lord. my answer to you is this “GO FOR IT”. you’re on your own.
Now that’s my assessment, and my consideration to your response.
Yes they were under a blood covenant, but tell me this, if they were under a blood covenant of forgiveness, why was it necessary for Jesus to say to the paralyzed man "you're sin are forgiven" ?. Even the teachers of the law said you cannot go around forgiving sin like that , only God can do that and not without the process of sacrifice. This thinking comes from a God up in the sky that demands to be worshipped and appeased.
#1. Jesus is GOD in flesh.
#2. this man had a covenant right.
#3. don't listen to teachers of the Law, ok.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Are there curves in a mountain road? 
but that's another matter.
