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I think we should take a poll to see if there is anyone on this forum who has NOT been told they are going to hell!
I think I've only been told that by a few people. More often I'm referred to by terms like swine or dog or Satan's seed or devil's child or Jezebel. As Hanni would say, good times, good times.
Whatever has been discussed or bandied about on this thread, any gay person who feels the need for Christianity in their lives (that pertaining to 'Jesus' and NOT that of the conservative or 'fundie' group which is not necessarily 'Christianity' anyway) then there are any number of gay-affirming churches springing up and increasing in number, so I believe, month by month. There is nothing wrong in being gay. Don't be fooled by the religious rhetoric of the fundie Christian. They are only expressing their ignorance ...both scripturally as well as from an understanding of human sexuality. Ignore them.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
I can see how you might take the first bolded section the way you did (I took it differently), but since he directly after that uses the term "fundie Christian", it seems he probably did NOT mean it the way you took it.
Thanks. While I've never believed that the two people that I mostly deal with on this thread are not Christians, it's the 'form of Christianity' that I question of both of them since it doesn't appear to represent Jesus Christ as well as it might. I also object to the lies that are told 'in the name of Christianity' ...i.e. 'there are numerous passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality' as per Jeff. The facts are that there are NOT numerous passages in the Bible that condemn homosexuality. There are actually none since the term and the understanding of such a term - in whatever language - would have been unknown to the Bible authors. Christian or not, Jeff is not telling the truth.
Also, the Bible quotes used from some of the more contemporary Bibles (post 1946) can be pretty destructive since they target actual people with their demeaning content. For instance, 'homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God'. Jeff and others believe in a literal hell. So, if homosexuals (actually named!) will not inherit the kingdom of God , then what alternative will they inherit? And yet, even when this discrepancy regarding corrupted interpretations of scripture is pointed out repeatedly, a few posts on and we're back to the lies and the quotes from the post-1946 Bibles pertaining to a group of people by name!
This is not acceptable whether one refers to themselves as a Christian or not!
I don't doubt that Jeff is a Christian but he also comes across as being somewhat a cry-baby. Sorry, but all one has to do is to read his posts. He can lie about the scriptures to his heart's content and use misrepresented scriptures that name and shame ACTUAL PEOPLE and actually condemn them to hell, yet he persistently comes back with 'you're picking on me and my religious beliefs and I don't like it'.
We're all real people and sometimes what we read of each other on a forum such as this is not necessarily what we would find of each other if we were to actually meet face-to-face to discuss a topic such as this one. We would possibly, even likely, come away from such a meeting feeling quite differently about one another.
What actual Jesus are you following? Unless it is the one of the Bible, you are following the wrong one.
And no one here needs your “permission” or to back up their claims that homosexuality is wrong.
Jesus said it, and only He gets to make that call. He did, and in many ways said it was wrong. Sexual
Immorality is homosexuality, fornication, porn, bestiality, pedophiles, etc. Anything that is outside man/woman marriage is sin. However, if you repent, you will be wiped clean..
The problem I see is, you don’t take Him at His word. No, gay people shouldn’t be bullied, but Jesus came to save them from their sin. Anyone that came in contact with Jesus turned away from their sin
and repented.
The Bible is about God and how He fulfills His promises to us. It also teaches
Us about Jesus. Throw the Bible out and you’ve got nothing. Keep it and you learn what God chose
to reveal to us about Himself.
God will judge at the end- and unless you follow Jesus and obey His commands...
Depart from Me as I never knew you, will be the scariest thing you will hear.
People obey Jesus, not because of fear, but because of Love. Not Eros love, but the love God has for
you that He left the splendor of heaven, took on flesh and lived righteously and diedfor your sins, then rose 3 days later. He loved us when we were still sinners.
He came to set us free from sin- all sin including homosexuality.
If you don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture, then you will not believe Truth. And that, is like mocking God. God will judge you, and you should fear that. Its not a slam the door type of anger- it’s wrath. Scary, down to the core wrath.
Jesus said many times that Your lips praise Me but your heart is far from Me, and Why do you call Me Lord, Lord and not do what I command you?
In the words of John the Baptist- Repent and believe as the Kingdom of God is at hand.
What actual Jesus are you following? Unless it is the one of the Bible, you are following the wrong one.
And no one here needs your “permission” or to back up their claims that homosexuality is wrong.
Jesus said it, and only He gets to make that call. He did, and in many ways said it was wrong. Sexual
Immorality is homosexuality, fornication, porn, bestiality, pedophiles, etc. Anything that is outside man/woman marriage is sin. However, if you repent, you will be wiped clean..
The problem I see is, you don’t take Him at His word. No, gay people shouldn’t be bullied, but Jesus came to save them from their sin. Anyone that came in contact with Jesus turned away from their sin
and repented.
The Bible is about God and how He fulfills His promises to us. It also teaches
Us about Jesus. Throw the Bible out and you’ve got nothing. Keep it and you learn what God chose
to reveal to us about Himself.
God will judge at the end- and unless you follow Jesus and obey His commands...
Depart from Me as I never knew you, will be the scariest thing you will hear.
People obey Jesus, not because of fear, but because of Love. Not Eros love, but the love God has for
you that He left the splendor of heaven, took on flesh and lived righteously and diedfor your sins, then rose 3 days later. He loved us when we were still sinners.
He came to set us free from sin- all sin including homosexuality.
If you don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture, then you will not believe Truth. And that, is like mocking God. God will judge you, and you should fear that. Its not a slam the door type of anger- it’s wrath. Scary, down to the core wrath.
Jesus said many times that Your lips praise Me but your heart is far from Me, and Why do you call Me Lord, Lord and not do what I command you?
In the words of John the Baptist- Repent and believe as the Kingdom of God is at hand.
that the word and concept of a person being a homosexual did not exist at the time the Hebrew or Christian (OT or NT) testaments were written down.
Similar to the world being flat verses a spherical shape. Concepts that are not understood the same by people of those times, and people of our times. If your Christianity must hold on to a world that is flat with four corners, you have confined God to a reality that could only be understood by a primitive patriarchal tribal society where women were owned like cattle.
Marriage was an ownership contract between Father and Husband and the woman was the commodity. Usually there was an exchange of money or goods. Often the Father paid the Husband dowry to take his daughter, sometimes the husband gave money or goods to the Father for the Daughter. Different cultures had different ways.
Women who did not birth children/sons or were not satisfactory to husband could be divorced. Women did not have such options in most cultures. Abuse of women was allowed.
Marriage of multiple women was generally allowed.
I have no interest in bringing back traditional marriage!
Well, if you're asking me ...I generally follow logic. And, if at times, logic tends to tie with the 'love for neighbor' message that Jesus taught, well ...all the better. I realize that that is pretty much rhetoric but most any answer to your question would be.
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Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
Unless it is the one of the Bible, you are following the wrong one.
So, educate me ...how, precisely, are YOU following Jesus? If you respond at all I'll guess in advance that it will be in the form of rhetoric!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
And no one here needs your “permission” or to back up their claims that homosexuality is wrong.
I never said that anyone here needs my "permission" to back up their claims that homosexuality is wrong. I am, however, ASKING those who claim that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God to back up this claim with actual scripture. Incidentally, I do believe that 'hell' is the alternative to not inheriting the kingdom of God. I notice that the present anti-gay brigade are rather coy when it comes to actually stating that homosexual people are destined for hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
Jesus said it, and only He gets to make that call. He did, and in many ways said it was wrong. Sexual Immorality is homosexuality, fornication, porn, bestiality, pedophiles, etc. Anything that is outside man/woman marriage is sin.
Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality. It's later human interference with the Bible that has made homosexuality 'the sin' that you folks claim it to be. I repeat ...the authors of the Bible would have had no clue what homosexuality was. They would not have had a term or word for something that they either never personally came across or would not have understood as being a natural part of human sexuality even if they had come across it. That said, even if Jesus HAD alluded to homosexuality (by name) as being 'a sin', He would also have said to you, Sg ..."You who have never sinned, cast the first stone" ...so to have you running off with your tail between your legs, just as Jesus intended!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
However, if you repent, you will be wiped clean..
Yes, O pious one ...have YOU repented of your sins today? Do you repent of your sins as they occur, on an hourly basis ...or do you bundle them up and repent of them all at day's end?
Such empty rhetoric!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
The problem I see is, you don’t take Him at His word.
Do you live with me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
No, gay people shouldn’t be bullied, but Jesus came to save them from their sin.
It's nice to know that you don't want homosexuals bullied. That's a plus, I guess.
What IS this 'sin' that homosexual people apparently commit? Please, be specific.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
Anyone that came in contact with Jesus turned away from their sin and repented.
Really? Can you name names or is this simply more empty rhetoric from you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
The Bible is about God and how He fulfills His promises to us. It also teaches Us about Jesus.
Have YOU learned anything about Jesus? It's YOU who you need to be concerned about ...not homosexual people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
Throw the Bible out and you’ve got nothing. Keep it and you learn what God chose to reveal to us about Himself.
You DO know that the Bible is a book, do you not, Sg? Furthermore, you DO know that God does reveal Himself in the Old Testament as a rather loathsome character, do you not? Or, do you believe that disobedient children, non-virgins, those who profane the Sabbath (90% of Christians!), adulterers, etc. should be executed? If not, why not? You DO agree with His statutes and commands, do you not? Where do we draw the line regarding the 613-plus commands initiated BY GOD in the Torah? Oh, that's right ...'Jesus' canceled out all the commands except for Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.*
* Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 don't refer to homosexuality anyway. They likely refer to idolatry and temple prostitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
God will judge at the end- and unless you follow Jesus and obey His commands...Depart from Me as I never knew you, will be the scariest thing you will hear.
Yes, the 'fundies' might be shaking in their shoes if they could ever associate themselves with Jesus' "Depart from me, I never knew you" quote. But, even that quote was written down by someone other than Jesus. Anyway, the ONLY two commands, apparently from Jesus, was 'love God with all your heart, soul and strength' and 'love your neighbor as yourself'. What other commands do we need?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
People obey Jesus, not because of fear, but because of Love. Not Eros love, but the love God has for you that He left the splendor of heaven, took on flesh and lived righteously and died for your sins, then rose 3 days later. He loved us when we were still sinners.
He came to set us free from sin- all sin including homosexuality.
Again ...what - precisely - is 'the sin' of homosexuality? That's a serious question asked many times and, as far as I know, having received no satisfactory answer thus far. Most Christians tend to run away from that question, as well as other questions, asked of them. Would you care to be the first to answer, Sg? What is 'the sin' of homosexuality?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
If you don’t believe in the inerrancy of scripture, then you will not believe Truth. And that, is like mocking God. God will judge you, and you should fear that. Its not a slam the door type of anger- it’s wrath. Scary, down to the core wrath.
Nonsense. There will be no wrath ...certainly not of the kind that you (probably) and yours believe in. Eternal torment in hell ...what a horrible belief! Love God with all your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself is the only 'truth' required. Anything else is either rhetoric, subterfuge or red herrings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
Jesus said many times that Your lips praise Me but your heart is far from Me, and Why do you call Me Lord, Lord and not do what I command you?
Do you say that very thing to the image you get from your mirror? YOU are the one you need to be concerned about, Sg. A good suggestion might be that you mind your own business about everyone else and tend to your own backyard which is probably not as spotlessly clean as you think it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturngoddess
In the words of John the Baptist- Repent and believe as the Kingdom of God is at hand.
Hmm ...a nice sermon but I've heard it regurgitated SO many times previously. It's little wonder you get a 'ho-hum' post from TroutDude. It IS rather tiresome . . .
I never said that anyone here needs my "permission" to back up their claims that homosexuality is wrong. I am, however, ASKING those who claim that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God to back up this claim with actual scripture. Incidentally, I do believe that 'hell' is the alternative to not inheriting the kingdom of God. I notice that the present anti-gay brigade are rather coy when it comes to actually stating that homosexual people are destined for hell.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality," 1 Corinthians 6:9
There ya go, ACTUAL SCRIPTURE. I don't know how much more plain it has to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Jesus said NOTHING about homosexuality. It's later human interference with the Bible that has made homosexuality 'the sin' that you folks claim it to be. I repeat ...the authors of the Bible would have had no clue what homosexuality was. They would not have had a term or word for something that they either never personally came across or would not have understood as being a natural part of human sexuality even if they had come across it. That said, even if Jesus HAD alluded to homosexuality (by name) as being 'a sin', He would also have said to you, Sg ..."You who have never sinned, cast the first stone" ...so to have you running off with your tail between your legs, just as Jesus intended!
Argument from silence is a fallacy. Jesus didn't speak against bestiality either. The authors of the Bible were well aware that two men or women having intimate relationships together was wrong and said so in the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
You DO know that the Bible is a book, do you not, Sg? Furthermore, you DO know that God does reveal Himself in the Old Testament as a rather loathsome character, do you not? Or, do you believe that disobedient children, non-virgins, those who profane the Sabbath (90% of Christians!), adulterers, etc. should be executed? If not, why not? You DO agree with His statutes and commands, do you not? Where do we draw the line regarding the 613-plus commands initiated BY GOD in the Torah? Oh, that's right ...'Jesus' canceled out all the commands except for Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.*
The Bible is the Word of God. This is how God communicates with us. This is how thousands of pastors have mined thousands of sermons in thousands of churches. Very few Christians share your belief that the Bible is nothing but a dusty old book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
* Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 don't refer to homosexuality anyway. They likely refer to idolatry and temple prostitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Yea ok, only in your fantasy word would a verse that is specifically against same sex relations have nothing to do with homosexuality. The same passage also speaks against incest which most ppl would find detestable, but I guess incest is ok as long as you are not in the context of worshipping an idol in the temple!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV
Again ...what - precisely - is 'the sin' of homosexuality? That's a serious question asked many times and, as far as I know, having received no satisfactory answer thus far. Most Christians tend to run away from that question, as well as other questions, asked of them. Would you care to be the first to answer, Sg? What is 'the sin' of homosexuality?
I won't run away from any of your questions. The sin of homosexuality is living a lifestyle that is exactly opposite of what God designed. Satan loves it because it is taking something beautiful and perfect and doing it completely against God's will and plan. His way of thumbing his nose at God. God only designed us to connect with the opposite sex.
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality," 1 Corinthians 6:9
There ya go, ACTUAL SCRIPTURE. I don't know how much more plain it has to be.
Argument from silence is a fallacy. Jesus didn't speak against bestiality either. The authors of the Bible were well aware that two men or women having intimate relationships together was wrong and said so in the Bible.
The Bible is the Word of God. This is how God communicates with us. This is how thousands of pastors have mined thousands of sermons in thousands of churches. Very few Christians share your belief that the Bible is nothing but a dusty old book.
Yea ok, only in your fantasy word would a verse that is specifically against same sex relations have nothing to do with homosexuality. The same passage also speaks against incest which most ppl would find detestable, but I guess incest is ok as long as you are not in the context of worshipping an idol in the temple!
I won't run away from any of your questions. The sin of homosexuality is living a lifestyle that is exactly opposite of what God designed. Satan loves it because it is taking something beautiful and perfect and doing it completely against God's will and plan. His way of thumbing his nose at God. God only designed us to connect with the opposite sex.
Again, you quote from a mistranslation of Scripture as there has never been “homosexuality” as a translatable word from Greek or Hebrew. You’ve simply made up your own Bible and made it to reflect demonic views. Jesus calls you and other Bible worshippers “whited sepulchres” unfit to enter the Kingdom of God and certainly incapable of sharing God’s love.
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—-according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon, the word translated “effeminate” comes from the Greek word “malakos,” meaning: “1. soft, soft to the touch 2. metaph. in bad sense –a. effeminate –1. of a catamite –2. of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man –3. of a male who submits his body for unnatural lewdness –4. of a male prostitute.” 4 Just for good measure, I double-checked a second lexicon and it also stated the word literally means “soft.” 5 But, what exactly does that mean? This common Greek word had so many different connotations depending on the context in which it was used. In regards to morality, “effeminate” might be used to describe laziness, decadence, or lack of courage. 6 The word could also be describing delicate or expensive clothing worn by rich men. Men who pampered themselves or liked expensive things would have likely been considered soft. But, whatever the word does mean, what “malakos”, that is, “effeminate” certainly does not mean is “gay.”
McQueen, Steve; Reasonable Doubt: A Case for LGBTQ Inclusion in the Institutions of Marriage and Church; Chapter six, Exhibit E, Boys and Men.
Find Jesus as your Savior and the Bible, misquoted and mistranslated, will no longer be part of your idolatry.
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several people have not noted the distinction
