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You're right, Jesus is not in the separating business. That has already happened (Isaiah 59:2). Jesus is in the redeeming business.
Nevertheless, there is overwhelming scriptural evidence that UR is a false doctrine.
There is overwhelming evidence that not only the doctrine of eternal torment is false, provided by the resident bible believing fundy universalist Eusebius, but most of mainstream Christian doctrine too. It's got to be for the simple fact it is built on the sinking sand of salvation from the doctrine of eternal torment. Lke I said earlier any reasonable minded person could never attribute such a gross evil doctrine to a God of peace, love and goodwill to all peoples. I know without doubt when I became a fundy it was not long before I would not give reason the time of day.
Originally Posted by Eusebius So Jesus, John, Paul, God are into teaching false doctrine and are wrong to tell us to charge and teach He is the Saviour of all mankind? Notice it doesn't say "God will have all mankind to be saved if man just does his part." No! It says "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . FOR (or the reason this is so is because) Christ gave Himself a ransom for ALL (mankind)" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).
One who has been ransomed MUST be freed. The Bible shows every animal or human who was ransomed had to be freed. Since all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must be freed from slaver to sin and death and brought into the liberation of God's salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
See post #5.
Here is post #5
Quote:
Verse 10 is the key. God is the general Saviour of all men, as he has put them into a salvable state; but
he is in a particular manner the Saviour of true believers, who have placed their faith in Christ's
redemptive work. See John 3.
1 Timothy 4:10 doesn't say "God is the general Saviour of all men." Nor does it state "God has put all mankind into a salvable state." Nor does it say "He is in a particular manner the Saviour of true believers.
Can we not just believe it at face value? "GOD IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND." A Saviour is one who saves, not one who just offers salvation.
Again, jimmiej, please find one instance in the whole Bible where any animal or human that was ransomed was not freed. If you care one whit about believing God, you, at the very least owe it to yourself to do a comprehensive study on "ransom" and "redeem" in the Old Testament.
Why would it mean to us that anyone who is ransomed in the Old Testament had to be freed but all of a sudden, when it comes to being the reason God will have all mankind to be saved, you feel ransom changed its meaning and outcome.
There is overwhelming evidence that not only the doctrine of eternal torment is false, provided by the resident bible believing fundy universalist Eusebius, but most of mainstream Christian doctrine too. It's got to be for the simple fact it is built on the sinking sand of salvation from the doctrine of eternal torment. Lke I said earlier any reasonable minded person could never attribute such a gross evil doctrine to a God of peace, love and goodwill to all peoples. I know without doubt when I became a fundy it was not long before I would not give reason the time of day.
You're basing your opinion on what you think God is like, which is different from scripture, including the words of Christ.
You're basing your opinion on what you think God is like, which is different from scripture, including the words of Christ.
Not at all,reason is perfectly acceptable with God. He said come let us reason together, not submit yourself to my reasoning, for that is certainly not reasoning together. You are basing being saved from eternal torment on something other than the scriptures. It simply is not there. I was pleased to read that Ham it up said he believed he was saved from sin and death which is scriptural, but you just know that he is not being completely up front with it because being saved from sin and death means ultimately being saved from eternal torment to him.
John 3:14-17
Why would Jesus tell John the majority of mankind are going to an eternal hell (which He never did say) and later tell Paul that "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" (1 Tim.2:4-6)?
Why would Christ contradict Himself?
He didn't contradict himself nor doesn't Paul contradict Jesus. Your lack of discernment only has it as such.
Objective & subjective is what Jesus taught. Paul in 1 Tim.2:4-6 is focusing on the objective
OBJECTIVE ... factually true \ factually completed "IT IS FINISHED" cried Jesus on the cross
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son," objective
1 Tim.2:4-6 "God will have all mankind to be saved . . . for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all" objective
SUBJECTIVE ... is what God looks for in the individuals heart
John 3:16 "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." subjective
Mark 3:29 "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will neverbeforgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”subjective
1 Chronicles 28:9.... "for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought ..... if you forsake him, he will reject you forever." ..... subjective
The alternative is the half truth Satanical lie of UR ... which promises that those who reject faith as being their subjective ownership in this life and after death when God searches the heart will still eventually achieve the same blessing as those who do during their time of grace while living on earth.
UR has been and always be the Satanical half truth \ full lie ... and furthermore will be shown when Jesus sends the left to their just damnation.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
No, actually it is impossible for AIWNIOS to mean eternal since it is an adjective derived from its noun form AIWN. Since no AIWN (eon) is eternal, it is impossible for its adjectival form to be greater than the noun from which it was derived.
Believers get eonian life. The eons will end (the bible tells me so). If the eons end and believers have eonian life or life pertaining to the coming eons, how will they live when the eons end? In the resurrection believers put on immortality and incorruption. So we continue to live when the eons end.
Any questions?
Plainly:
You have no authoritative Greek expertise that supersedes countless trained in NT Greek theologians that isn't being parroted from some misguided \ deceived or from such a source that is no more than the puppets of Satan who is doing his bidding.
Any questions as well ... or do I need to spell it out?
1 Timothy 4:10 doesn't say "God is the general Saviour of all men." Nor does it state "God has put all mankind into a salvable state." Nor does it say "He is in a particular manner the Saviour of true believers.
Can we not just believe it at face value? "GOD IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND." A Saviour is one who saves, not one who just offers salvation.
Again, jimmiej, please find one instance in the whole Bible where any animal or human that was ransomed was not freed. If you care one whit about believing God, you, at the very least owe it to yourself to do a comprehensive study on "ransom" and "redeem" in the Old Testament.
Why would it mean to us that anyone who is ransomed in the Old Testament had to be freed but all of a sudden, when it comes to being the reason God will have all mankind to be saved, you feel ransom changed its meaning and outcome.
The commentary was based on the whole of scripture. If you take John 3, Daniel 12:2, Luke 16, etc., you must conclude as I stated in post #5.
Plainly:
You have no authoritative Greek expertise that supersedes countless trained in NT Greek theologians that isn't being parroted from some misguided \ deceived or from such a source that is no more than the puppets of Satan who is doing his bidding.
Any questions as well ... or do I need to spell it out?
That does not get you off the hook just making a proclamation such as the above.
Furthermore you are using the fallacy of argumentum ad populum which is "If everyone states something to be so, it is so."
Please disprove this:
America = noun
American = adjective
Bush was the American president. His presidency pertained to America. It was not greater than America.
Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The realm of the Angel pertains to Heaven.
Eon = noun
Eonian = adjective
God is the eonian God (Rom.16:26). God is the God pertaining to the eons. He is over them, directing the eons and subjecting mankind to the goal He has for each eon.
The commentary was based on the whole of scripture. If you take John 3, Daniel 12:2, Luke 16, etc., you must conclude as I stated in post #5.
No, not really.
John 3 tells us God is going to save the world.
Daniel 12:2 tells us some Israelites will be resurrection to eonian life and some to eonian shame.
Luke 16 is concerning a parable. In that parable the rich man can't get out. But in Revelation all get out of Hades and stand before the great white throne.
Even the second death isn't eternal since Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 shows it being done away.
I don't understand(well I do) why something Paul said is deserving of universal acceptance is fought against as if the very thought of it being acceptable is ghastly, yet something that cannot be supported with scripture(the belief that we are saved from eternal hell if we believe in Jesus) is accepted without reservation. Nullifying the word of God(Jesus Christ) for the sake of handed down tradition and doctrines of men (men who do not know God or the scriptures). I being a former fundamentalist know without doubt I was bewitched into believing it.
I don't understand(well I do) why something Paul said is deserving of universal acceptance is fought against as if the very thought of it being acceptable is ghastly, yet something that cannot be supported with scripture(the belief that we are saved from eternal hell if we believe in Jesus) is accepted without reservation. Nullifying the word of God(Jesus Christ) for the sake of handed down tradition and doctrines of men (men who do not know God or the scriptures). I being a former fundamentalist know without doubt I was bewitched into believing it.
Just goes to show that even an evil, rabid fundamentalist that I am can believe the good news which Paul said was ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God (1 Tim.2:3)
Maybe those who don't welcome it do so due to loving darkness and hating the light?
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