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Nine out of ten times when hell is brought into the conversation it is done by someone who denies it exists. The poster who opened this thread claims hell does not exist and yet he can't stop talking about it.
No. I only see it in the people who believe in it. You couldn't start a thread in any other place than a Christian forum and get any serious thoughts on it. The belief it what drives it's existence. The belief is what gives life to it.
Belief in hell. This is what this kind of argument really comes down to.
Some view this as hate.
But the person who believes in hell views it as righteous anger. Because people need to pay for their sins after they die. As long as God in his righteous judgement does the choosing, that's all that matters.
In other words, what seems like hate to other people, is really righteous anger to those who believe in hell.
Righteous anger? By whom, God? Please explain.
I believe it is God's eternal holiness that requires an eternal hell.
No. I only see it in the people who believe in it. You couldn't start a thread in any other place than a Christian forum and get any serious thoughts on it. The belief it what drives it's existence. The belief is what gives life to it.
I was not offering an opinion, but a fact. It is typically brought up by people who deny its existence, and this thread is just one example in many.
So you believe God gets more than Satan! That is a start in the right direction. What is the percentage Satan gets to the percentage of the world's population Jesus gets? My Bible says it is all or none that Jesus gets. Yours says Jesus gets a few.
The thing is, I do believe Christ.
Do you not think it honors Christ more that He will eventually get all He died for? Or do you think it honors Satan to take away all Christ died for?
If you paid for a car but before you took possession of that car, Satan came along and took the engine, wheels, seats, windows, do you think you'd still be getting a good deal even though you paid for the whole car?
No Eusebius, you don't believe Christ. Especially everything He spoke and taught in the NT . Warning the world of the consequence of their sin if they did not turn from it and repent, period.
It is not a matter of who wins more Jesus or Satan, this little game of UR plays out to try and make ppl feel guilty and that is just what it is a game, a sad game you all play.
You believe in a doctrine that down plays sin and the cross and do not take serious what Christ warned and especially went through to keep you from the consequence of your sin and it is absolutely saddening.
Have you ever really stop to think why the Father went to the extreme of sending His Son to come to this earth to die a dreadful death on a Cross for the sin of the world, when He was perfect and had no sin ? No it is more serious then what UR's lead ppl to believe. If God was going to save the whole world anyway what a awful joke He play with Christ' life in having to die on the cross for the sin of the world. Your logic makes no sense whatsoever and yes, I don't believe you truly believe Christ. Or you would take serious what Christ did and went through. Like I said, it seems your more into the who is going to win more Christ or Satan game . Because that is always what comes out of the mouth of UR's !!
You are doing the same thing Satan did in the beginning with Eve. Genesis 3 for those who want to read it.
Satan: Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”
Eve: “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’”
Satan: “You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
sounds just like the argument you present with your UR doctrine ?
UR: “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not be cast away into eternal damnation if you don't repent from your sin and trust in Christ !”
The ppl of the world : Yes, God did say if we don't repent from our sin, and trust Christ we will die in our sin and be eternally damned .
UR: “You surely will not die! For God is love and knows that in the day you believe in UR your eyes will be opened, and you will be freed from believing there is no eternal consequence for your sin .”
UR is nothing but lies, lies, and more lies, surely you won't die !!
What the Father had to do to get mankind to see the dreadfulness of sin by sending His only begotten Son to die on a Cross that they may be saved from eternal damnation . It is a very serious matter Eusebius in what you teach to be truth and putting yourself over and above Christ in what HE spoke, taught and died for, amen !!
All anyone has to do is go and read the book of John and they'll see what a lie UR teaches and how the truth comes from and through Jesus Christ, non other, amen !!
I find it interesting that sincere believers such as yourself will believe someone just as long as it agrees with your theology. And if it doesn't, well, they are taking scriptures out of context.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 are faithful and worthy of all welcome. Yet you think they are unfaithful and unwelcome to the point that you have to change what they say to suit your theological construct.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
Interesting that you, the very one who accuses us of taking scriptures out of context is guilty of doing that very same thing.
For instance, your quote of Matt.7:14 is not about all mankind but those Israelites under the law. The law was a very narrow constricted path and only a few Israelites found life through it.
Your quote of Matt.22:14 likewise is not concerning all mankind but those called out of Israel to be believing who were also specifically chosen to be believing. And if eternal torture is correct as you believe then God is responsible for choosing certain ones for life and certain ones to never get life. But if Universalism is correct then God chooses certain ones for eonian/age-during life and the others He doesn't. But eventually all will be saved. God is glorified in all He does under the biblical paradigm of universalism. He is a merciless Ogre under your paradigm.
Even your Luke 13:22-24 is ripped out of context and you feel it has to do with all mankind? Does all mankind have to strive to enter through the narrow gate of the law to be saved?
More UR lies and God will surely deliver those who are genuinely seeking to worship Him in spirit and truth !! So it doesn't matter what you say, falsely accuse and deny with scripture .
If I were you, I'd be getting on my knees and praying to the Father for forgiveness and His truth to lead you out of all the UR garbage you hold deeply too.
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Originally Posted by arleigh
What bothers you about the fact Hell exists ,
except may be that you are still in rebellion?
Yes, that is the whole issue ! It is a obstinate and rebellious heart that denies hell and what Jesus Christ warned about it !!
Ah yes, What evening would be complete without the classic TwinSpin default when all other argumentation is insufficient: "God's gonna get you for this!" You can do better than that.
...These Verses are what goes on in the back of your head all the time aren't they Twin? If so, they keep you in this unquestioning drone-like state of being able to justify anything as long as it appears to be biblical without giving it a second moral thought. But please, if its even possible for you, turn your drone switch off for a second and really look beyond what you think is an insult and compare the your level of unquestioning of torture hell to that of a suicide bomber. Are you really so different in this regard? You both believe in ideas that are morally unconscionable By any known standard of justice but you both think thats the best translation and your too afraid of God or Allah to think any other way.
If the New Testament said: "Blessed are those who molest Children" and that was the tradition for 1900 years until one day, a minority of scholars and Christians realized the Greek translation is wrong and said it should read "Blessed are those who 'nourish' Children" or something not insane like that, would you fight so hard against the minority as you do against UR just because you came from tradition and you thought you had the more accurate translation? I don't expect you to answer that, but its really not as far fetched of a question and comparison as you might think.
Anyways, to answer your question: if by some miracle/absurdity of morality Jesus says this exactly this way (which is probably a bad translation from the orignal given the words used) and means we're about to be carted off to Eternal Torture the way you seem to hope he does and it actually is 90 to 99% of all people including me for some reason, I can't be sure exactly what I'd say...It might be something along the lines of "You call victory?" and then sadly shake my head...or maybe if I'm feeling brave: "enjoy your eternity being worshiped by a comparatively small group of people whose love for you is too tainted by fear to be true love." Then I'm sure you'd stand there in 'glee' as I'll be carted off along with Ghandi, John Lennon, probably most of the people who work in charity organizations, and maybe even by your standards, Mother Teresa, to burn forever in Bill Weise style hell for failing to have Twin-perfect theology...but no, thats not going to happen because I love Jesus and I trust his judgment will make sense in the end and I believe he has guided my conscience to at least some degree on this issue...which perhaps is why I feel led to write as much as I am even if its not perfect.
I personally think your going to be like Jonah angry about God not destroying Nineveh when it comes to who ends up in heaven. And you'll have to give an account of why you thought God (a.k.a. Love) could be capable of torturing people for eternity even after you've endlessly heard logical and moral arguments (you haven't even come close to defeating or even addressing) and even biblical arguments about why this is insane... Or maybe he'll be nice and put you in the room with people who think their the only ones in heaven, but I doubt it. I know all you care about is whats in the Bible and you brush off any moral or logical based argument no matter how strong, but this just makes you look even more unempathetic and drone-ish I fear your posts really do come off this way to anyone who isn't a fundamentalist looking to thumbs up something that sounds Christianese to them or something with favorable scripture in it. Heck, If you remember anything from this long post, I hope its that.
Come on Twin, for the sake of everyone here who thinks you have no moral or logical mind of your own, Take a crack at justifying this Cosmic Geneva convention violation of infinite proportions on a scale that is at least somewhat comparable to a Human Justice scale from the perspective of a creator who set all the rules and punishments from the beginning on a race of people he claims to love and knew would be imperfect. And no, you won't be playing God by doing so; Just trying to understand things from his perspective so you can better evangelize..and perhaps even sleep better at night.
1) you sure don't have a good memory of Job's arrogance of questioning of what he thought was fair and God's subsequent put down of a speechless Job .... do you?
2) Your obvious spiteful anger towards God and his Word speaks more than any song and dance humanistic cover-up rational you're presenting under the guise of Jrhockey's logical and moral arguments of his Human Justice scale.
3) other than that, you've done nothing but rambled and fumed.
What bothers you about the fact Hell exists ,
except may be that you are still in rebellion?
Fact Hell exists?
Which "Hell" are you talking about arleigh? Are you talking about Sheol (the grave) which some translations translated as "Hell" or "grave"?
Or is it Hades which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Sheol" also known as the grave but sometimes improperly translated as "Hell"?
Or is it Gehenna, a park now but a trash dump during the millennial reign of Christ in the future where there will be fires burning the trash and worms where the fires aren't?
Or is it Tartarus, which are caverns but some translated as "Hell"?
Or is it the Lake of fire which some think is Hell but is called "Death"?
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.
It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.
And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither, is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that man "might" come to this salvation and knowledge.
Isa_46:10 Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'"
The Greek word in 1 Timothy 2:4 for "wills" is the same as
Eph_1:11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
Not only that, but God's saving of all mankind is directly linked to Christ ransoming all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:5 . . . God will have all mankind to be saved FOR . . . Christ gave Himself a ransom for all."
Since all have been ransomed, and since the Bible clearly shows us that any animal or human that is ransomed must be freed, we see that since all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must therefore logically be freed from slavery to sin and death and emancipated into God's salvation.
Belief in hell. This is what this kind of argument really comes down to.
Some view this as hate.
But the person who believes in hell views it as righteous anger. Because people need to pay for their sins after they die.
That's interesting. People need to pay for their sins after they die? I thought you believe Jesus paid for our sins? So God is opting to completely dismiss Christ's death for all mankind's sins just so He can please you?
Quote:
As long as God in his righteous judgement does the choosing, that's all that matters.
Righteous judgment of all mankind is God or Christ judging people in harmony with the fact that Christ already paid for their sins. He already died for them. It would be unrighteous of God to spit on Christ's sacrifice for all and make people pay for their sins. Yes, people will be judged at the Great White Throne. But judging is setting things straight. No one goes into the lake of fire for lack of faith in Christ. They are judged/set right according to their acts. The second death is not punitive for those interred in it.
Quote:
In other words, what seems like hate to other people, is really righteous anger to those who believe in hell.
It is anger, yes, but eternal hell is far from righteous. It is a hideous representation of a loving God who did everything to save all mankind.
More UR lies and God will surely deliver those who are genuinely seeking to worship Him in spirit and truth !! So it doesn't matter what you say, falsely accuse and deny with scripture .
If I were you, I'd be getting on my knees and praying to the Father for forgiveness and His truth to lead you out of all the UR garbage you hold deeply too.
But CM, I am only doing what I'm told to do. I am told to charge and teach that God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ ransomed all mankind and told to charge and teach that God is the Saviour of all mankind. THESE THINGS CHARGE AND TEACH" (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11).
I can only do that which I am told to do. Just because you don't want to be obedient doesn't excuse your false accusations.
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sounds just like the argument you present with your UR doctrine ?
I fear your posts really do come off this way to anyone who isn't a fundamentalist looking to thumbs up something that sounds Christianese to them or something with favorable scripture in it. Heck, If you remember anything from this long post, I hope its that.
