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I'd like to say something about Ephesians 2:8, assuming anyone will listen. There's a problem both grammatically and exegetically with taking that verse to mean that faith is a gift from God. First, the grammar. Here's the verse;
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace (χάριτί; Feminine Singular) you have been saved through faith (πίστεως; Feminine Singular); and this (τοῦτο; Neuter Singular) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Grammar matters. The problem here is one of noun/pronoun antecedence. In a sentence that has both a noun and a pronoun, in order for the pronoun to point to its antecedent noun the two have to agree in person, gender, and number. The problem with Ephesians 2:8 is one of gender.
In the sentence, ''Mary rode her bike to the store,'' the pronoun 'her' is the same gender as the noun 'Mary.'
If the sentence had read, ''Mary rode his bike to the store,'' the pronoun 'his' would not be pointing back to Mary because the gender of the pronoun doesn't agree with the noun. That sentence reads as if Mary is riding someone else's bike.
And that's the situation with Ephesians 2:8. The nouns 'grace' and 'faith' are both Feminine, while the demonstrative pronoun 'this' is Neuter. That means that Paul didn't intend for 'this' to refer to either 'grace' or Faith. Had Paul wanted to say that faith was a gift from God he would have used the Feminine form of the word 'τοῦτο' -'this'. The Feminine form in the nominative case is 'oὗτος' - 'this.' 'τοῦτο' is Neuter and oὗτος is Feminine.
What then does 'this' refer to if it's not pointing to either grace or faith? Well, 'this' doesn't point to the noun 'saved' either, but Paul's main subject in this passage is salvation. Verse five, ''when we were dead,'' ''made us alive,'' ''you have been saved.'' So rather than 'τοῦτο' pointing to a specific word, it's more likely that Paul is referring to his subject which is concept of salvation by grace through faith. It's not faith that Paul is saying is a gift from God, but rather, 'salvation' is a gift from God.
And then exegetically speaking, if faith were a gift from God, then since faith is a requirement to be saved, and not everyone will be saved, this would mean that God withholds something from certain people so that they can't be saved. But the Bible says that God desires that all men be saved, even though not all men will be.
Now, there was a temporary spiritual gift at the beginning of the church-age called 'faith.' This is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:9. But this was given only to certain people who were already believers and had previously been saved. It was given for encouragement.
But you don't have to take my word for it. Read it for yourself. The following is a paper that appeared in Dallas Theological Seminary's BIBLIOTHECA SACRA / July–September 2007 and addresses the subject.
If you are talking about the gift leading to salvation, the gift of the Holy Spirit is received (through faith) and that person is saved.
Yes, but one has to choose to rely on that faith instead of doubting it. It's still a conscious decision. And why in the world would God withhold it from anybody? Do some of you folks honestly believe that God created some people just to take up space on earth and then burn in hell forever? That thought boggles my mind.
If you are talking about the gift leading to salvation, the gift of the Holy Spirit is received (through faith) and that person is saved.
To me, 'leading to salvation' and the past tense ' saved ' are two different things.
Since Jesus taught to endure to the end in order to be saved at Matthew 24:13, then being saved is an on-going process.
I suppose that is why we are to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling' according to Philippians 2:12.
Obviously those of Hebrews 6:4-6 did Not work out their salvation.
So, sure while being faithful one is in a saved position just as long as he chooses to remain faithful.
Yes, but one has to choose to rely on that faith instead of doubting it. It's still a conscious decision. And why in the world would God withhold it from anybody? Do some of you folks honestly believe that God created some people just to take up space on earth and then burn in hell forever? That thought boggles my mind.
Yes - it is a conscious decision.
Why? I don't know - but everyone does not receive the gift of salvation.
The more important question is to each individual. If you understand what it takes to receive the gift of salvation, why reject it?
I believe once your are truly saved, you are always saved. But, we are mere human being and you could backslide into old ways. The Devil is not going to leave you alone just because you are saved, he will follow you all the way to the Pearly Gates. Although you are saved, it's still a continuous work progress, to keep growing in the words and your faith.
I believe once your are truly saved, you are always saved. But, we are mere human being and you could backslide into old ways. The Devil is not going to leave you alone just because you are saved, he will follow you all the way to the Pearly Gates. Although you are saved, it's still a continuous work progress, to keep growing in the words and your faith.
Of course you can backslide in your behavior, but that does not remove salvation. That is dealt with at the judgment seat of Christ... and it won't be an easy judgment for backsliders.
]Of course you can backslide in your behavior, but that does not remove salvation. [/b]That is dealt with at the judgment seat of Christ... and it won't be an easy judgment for backsliders.
1 Corinthians 3:10-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10
True and I always believed that. But, he is the God of a second chance, a forgiving God, unlike some of our brothers and sisters in Christ down here.
To me, 'leading to salvation' and the past tense ' saved ' are two different things.
Since Jesus taught to endure to the end in order to be saved at Matthew 24:13, then being saved is an on-going process.
I suppose that is why we are to 'work out our salvation with fear and trembling' according to Philippians 2:12.
Obviously those of Hebrews 6:4-6 did Not work out their salvation.
So, sure while being faithful one is in a saved position just as long as he chooses to remain faithful.
Enduring to salvation... That's not for the church. Who was Jesus talking to? Jews. You do not see that phrase in any letters to the church. You do have the tribulation period where the church is already gone, which is the 70th week of years mentioned in Daniel that has not occurred yet. Those who endure that tribulation period will be saved.
Phil 2 does not say work FOR your salvation... it says work OUT your salvation. There's a difference.
Because I freely choose to believe in the gospel of Christ.
Look at this here and consider the disciples.
Matthew 4:18-22 - Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 Immediately they left their nets and followed Him. 21 Going on from there He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and He called them. 22 Immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
Did Jesus choose them? - yes.
Did they freely choose to follow Christ? - yes, but...
John 15:16 - "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit,"
Now there was no pull against the will of the disciples to follow Christ... they chose to follow Him - and they actually stated that they chose to follow Him - I just can't dig it up.
it's late--or rather early, early morning andI'm tired and pulling this from an addled memory. Didn't one or two of the disciples see Jesus appear with John the B who stated "Here is the one who is greater than me---" or words to that effect? John's message made Jesus appear as the messiah so those who heard were interested in following Jesus and hearing what He had to say. They chose to follow because the popular view of the messiah in that culture was that the messiah would lead them in revolt against the Roman occupiers. There had already been a couple of self-proclaimed messiahs prior to Jesus. They had been killed. So the Jews were awaiting the "real" messiah. They were pulled into following by the messiah mystique and only later won by the charisma of the Man they met.
The first couple of disciples went to others stating "come see the messiah." Only Nathaniel was skeptical and I think it was Philip who said, "Come see for yourself." And Nathaniel did.
The message in that for those who don't know Christ is "Come see for yourself." Around other believers either they will see Jesus and want to follow or they will see something quite different from the messiah and want nothing to do with Him. That message also makes it clear that most people MUST see for themselves, they won't be talked into it.
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