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Interesting, isn't it Richard, that Christian fundamentalists INSIST that Jesus is in the lineage of David---without truly being descended from him.
No matter how inerrantists present their extremely improbable case for Mary being a descendant of David, it wouldn't matter since even if there had been any suggestion that Jesus traced his lineage back to David through his mother, the Bible writers would have been laughed out of town because, in Biblical times,
Paul Carlson, New Testament Contradictions, page 2.
Not sure how any of this is related to OSAS, but like most threads this one has drifted off course.
Mary goes to Joseph in my opinion, there are prophesies of the son of David, and there are also prophesies of the son of Joseph, and one of those of Joseph is fulfilled in the New Testament speaking of Ephraim,'' Joseph's son and lineage.''
Hosea God Yearns over His People 1When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.
2The more they called them,
The more they went from them;
They kept sacrificing to the Baals
And burning incense to idols. 3Yet it is I who taught Ephraim to walk,
I took them in My arms;
But they did not know that I healed them.
Hosea is a book about the loss of Ephraim, the ten tribes called by the name of Ephraim.
Matthew 2:15
This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my Son."{Ephraim/Joseph}
Ephraim, son of Joseph as Jesus was son of Joseph, or I would say,'' Messiah Ben Yoseph,'' to come also as the son of David.
Mary goes to Joseph in my opinion, there are prophesies of the son of David, and there are also prophesies of the son of Joseph, and one of those of Joseph is fulfilled in the New Testament speaking of Ephraim,'' Joseph's son and lineage.''
Hosea God Yearns over His People 1When Israel was a youth I loved him,
And out of Egypt I called My son.
2The more they called them,
The more they went from them;
They kept sacrificing to the Baals
And burning incense to idols. 3Yet it is I who taught Ephraim to walk,
I took them in My arms;
But they did not know that I healed them.
Hosea is a book about the loss of Ephraim, the ten tribes called by the name of Ephraim.
Matthew 2:15
This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my Son."{Ephraim/Joseph}
Ephraim, son of Joseph as Jesus was son of Joseph, or I would say,'' Messiah Ben Yoseph,'' to come also as the son of David.
Read Hosea again. That book is closer to OSAS, because it highlights that even when His children are unfaithful, His betrothed wife is unfaithful, God keeps coming back over and over even though He is terribly disappointed and even angry:
Quote:
I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you in righteousness and justice,
in love and compassion.
I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord.
Hosea 2:19-20
Quote:
The Lord said to me[Hosea], “Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the Lord loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes.”
Hosea 3:1
God is faithful, even when we are not, showing the true depth of His love for mankind.
Incidentally, one of the verses in Hosea is the reason one of the two (I don't remember which) writers of the nativity narratives decided to get Jesus into Egypt, thus "fulfilling" a "prophecy."
Read Hosea again. That book is closer to OSAS, because it highlights that even when His children are unfaithful, His betrothed wife is unfaithful, God keeps coming back over and over even though He is terribly disappointed and even angry:
Hosea 2:19-20
Hosea 3:1
God is faithful, even when we are not, showing the true depth of His love for mankind.
Incidentally, one of the verses in Hosea is the reason one of the two (I don't remember which) writers of the nativity narratives decided to get Jesus into Egypt, thus "fulfilling" a "prophecy."
Decided to “get him in”?...This doesn’t sound mainstream....
Read Hosea again. That book is closer to OSAS, because it highlights that even when His children are unfaithful, His betrothed wife is unfaithful, God keeps coming back over and over even though He is terribly disappointed and even angry:
Hosea 2:19-20
Hosea 3:1
God is faithful, even when we are not, showing the true depth of His love for mankind.
Incidentally, one of the verses in Hosea is the reason one of the two (I don't remember which) writers of the nativity narratives decided to get Jesus into Egypt, thus "fulfilling" a "prophecy."
Who do you think that betrothal is to?
That betrothal has NOTHING to do with Jews, you do know this is a fact, correct?
Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’
Israel Punished and Restored{The kingdom of Israel, NOT JUDAH}
Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’ 2“Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.
Let her remove the adulterous look from her face
and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts. 3Otherwise I will strip her naked
and make her as bare as on the day she was born;
I will make her like a desert,
turn her into a parched land,
and slay her with thirst. 4I will not show my love to her children,
because they are the children of adultery. 5Their mother has been unfaithful
and has conceived them in disgrace.
She said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
who give me my food and my water,
my wool and my linen, my olive oil and my drink.’ 6Therefore I will block her path with thornbushes;
I will wall her in so that she cannot find her way. 7She will chase after her lovers but not catch them;
she will look for them but not find them.
Then she will say,
‘I will go back to my husband as at first,
for then I was better off than now.’ 8She has not acknowledged that I was the one
who gave her the grain, the new wine and oil,
who lavished on her the silver and gold—
which they used for Baal.
9“Therefore I will take away my grain when it ripens,
and my new wine when it is ready.
I will take back my wool and my linen,
intended to cover her naked body. 10So now I will expose her lewdness
before the eyes of her lovers;
no one will take her out of my hands. 11I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals. 12I will ruin her vines and her fig trees,
which she said were her pay from her lovers;
I will make them a thicket,
and wild animals will devour them. 13I will punish her for the days
she burned incense to the Baals;
she decked herself with rings and jewelry,
and went after her lovers,
but me she forgot,”
declares the Lord.
14“Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her. 15There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respondas in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.
16“In that day,” declares the Lord,
“you will call me ‘my husband’;
you will no longer call me ‘my master.’ 17I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips;
no longer will their names be invoked. 18In that day I will make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the creatures that move along the ground.
Bow and sword and battle
I will abolish from the land,
so that all may lie down in safety. 19I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you inrighteousness and justice,
inlove and compassion. 20I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord.
21“In that day I will respond,”
declares the Lord—
“I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earth; 22and the earth will respond to the grain,
the new wine and the olive oil,
and they will respond to Jezreel. 23I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’
I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’;
and they will say, ‘You are my God.’ ”
God will offer to betroth Gentiles back into Ephraim, Not Judah.
Judah is already betrothed to God, Israel was wiped out. But even though God wiped them out, their numbers will be as the sands of the seas, a much greater number than Judah.
It is not just breaking news, it is the reflection of the misguided focus in religion on specific beliefs ABOUT Jesus and God instead of His actual instructions and example. Somehow believing Jesus and following His instructions to love God and each other to be His disciples became believing a set of "precepts and doctrines of men" ABOUT Him to become His disciples. It is infinitely harder to actually love God and each other every single day and repent when we don't than to claim to believe some creed. I call it the easy believism model. It is what birthed the ridiculous notion that unbelievers are the "standard for bad behavior" instead of unloving behavior.
I disagree. Even if I agreed with that statement it alienates the people you are trying to convince. By saying that is all you are doing is preaching to the choir. Do you really expect someone to show you respect after you disrespect them?
We are often reminded in Scripture to not behave as the unbeliever we used to be.
In the OT, the Jews were not to behave like the Gentiles.
God wants His children to behave like Himself.
Preaching to the choir? Yes - when we are urged to not behave as unbelievers, it is usually the case to preach this to other believers.
That betrothal has NOTHING to do with Jews, you do know this is a fact, correct?
Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’
Israel Punished and Restored{The kingdom of Israel, NOT JUDAH}
Say of your brothers, ‘My people,’ and of your sisters, ‘My loved one.’ 2“Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.
Let her remove the adulterous look from her face
and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts. 3Otherwise I will strip her naked
and make her as bare as on the day she was born;
I will make her like a desert,
turn her into a parched land,
and slay her with thirst. 4I will not show my love to her children,
because they are the children of adultery. 5Their mother has been unfaithful
and has conceived them in disgrace.
She said, ‘I will go after my lovers,
who give me my food and my water,
my wool and my linen, my olive oil and my drink.’ 6Therefore I will block her path with thornbushes;
I will wall her in so that she cannot find her way. 7She will chase after her lovers but not catch them;
she will look for them but not find them.
Then she will say,
‘I will go back to my husband as at first,
for then I was better off than now.’ 8She has not acknowledged that I was the one
who gave her the grain, the new wine and oil,
who lavished on her the silver and gold—
which they used for Baal.
9“Therefore I will take away my grain when it ripens,
and my new wine when it is ready.
I will take back my wool and my linen,
intended to cover her naked body. 10So now I will expose her lewdness
before the eyes of her lovers;
no one will take her out of my hands. 11I will stop all her celebrations:
her yearly festivals, her New Moons,
her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals. 12I will ruin her vines and her fig trees,
which she said were her pay from her lovers;
I will make them a thicket,
and wild animals will devour them. 13I will punish her for the days
she burned incense to the Baals;
she decked herself with rings and jewelry,
and went after her lovers,
but me she forgot,”
declares the Lord.
14“Therefore I am now going to allure her;
I will lead her into the wilderness
and speak tenderly to her. 15There I will give her back her vineyards,
and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope.
There she will respondas in the days of her youth,
as in the day she came up out of Egypt.
16“In that day,” declares the Lord,
“you will call me ‘my husband’;
you will no longer call me ‘my master.’ 17I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips;
no longer will their names be invoked. 18In that day I will make a covenant for them
with the beasts of the field, the birds in the sky
and the creatures that move along the ground.
Bow and sword and battle
I will abolish from the land,
so that all may lie down in safety. 19I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you inrighteousness and justice,
inlove and compassion. 20I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord.
21“In that day I will respond,”
declares the Lord—
“I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earth; 22and the earth will respond to the grain,
the new wine and the olive oil,
and they will respond to Jezreel. 23I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’
I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’;
and they will say, ‘You are my God.’ ”
God will offer to betroth Gentiles back into Ephraim, Not Judah.
Judah is already betrothed to God, Israel was wiped out. But even though God wiped them out, their numbers will be as the sands of the seas, a much greater number than Judah.
No Warden, we are talking about historical facts, what you were just speaking of before. Ephraim IS NOT JUDAH, ISRAEL IS NOT JUDAH. The Ten tribes IS NOT Judah.
The sins of the kingdom of Ephraim IS NOT Judah.
God DID NOT wipe out Judah, he wiped out Israel, Judah NEVER stopped being betrothed to God, Israel did.
Hosea IS NOT speaking of lost Jews, in a lost kingdom of Judah, it is speaking about the loss of the ten tribes.
Hosea 2 19I will betroth you to me forever;
I will betroth you in righteousness and justice,
in love and compassion. 20I will betroth you in faithfulness,
and you will acknowledge the Lord. 21“In that day I will respond,”
declares the Lord—
“I will respond to the skies,
and they will respond to the earth; 22and the earth will respond to the grain,
the new wine and the olive oil,
and they will respond to Jezreel. 23I will plant her for myself in the land;
I will show my love to the one I called ‘Not my loved one.’
I will say to those called ‘Not my people,’ ‘You are my people’;
and they will say, ‘You are my God.’
God has never said to Judah,'' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE.''
Paul explains this fact in Romans when he is showing the loss of the ten tribes to be the gain to all nations, Paul WAS NOT A JEW, Paul explains that he is from the lost ten tribes and one of the 7000 reserved remnant found living amongst Jews.
Romans 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Hosea IS NOT about Judah, it is about Israel.
Elijah was sent to Israel, NOT JUDAH, John is sent to the people living in the land of Ephraim preparing the way before the bridegroom to betroth Gentiles, NOT JEWS.
Paul say,''24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?''
He is showing the betrothal to Gentiles that they could be redeemed into Israel, Jews NEVER stopped being God's betrothed. John was not sent to Jews because Jews don't need a betrothal to be redeemed into Israel.
You take away that betrothal to Gentile in Hosea, and you have taken the only path for a Gentile to become Israel.
Hosea 1
Then the Lord said to Hosea, “Call her Lo-Ruhamah (which means “not loved”), for I will no longer show love to Israel, that I should at all forgive them. 7Yet I will show love to Judah; and I will save them—not by bow, sword or battle, or by horses and horsemen, but I, the Lord their God, will save them.”
God wiped out Israel BECAUSE they became Gentiles, and as Gentiles they will betroth a Jew and be redeemed into Israel WITH Judah.
Because Christians don't know the difference between Israel and Judah, they take all the sins of Israel and try to put them on the head of Judah and this CANNOT be done. This misunderstanding has given rise to anti-Semitism. NOBODY can change the historical facts of what happened to the ten lost tribes of Israel. You can't say that the ten tribes were Jews because they were NEVER Jews, God never ended the kingdom of Judah, and you are taking the historical facts of Israel, and trying to make them about Judah, and this cannot be done.
Christians are not admitting the historical facts that there were TWO KINGDOMS, and the kingdom of Israel BECAME Gentiles because they called the Torah a strange thing.
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