Once saved always saved? (traditions, exodus, Apostle, repentance)
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That's because "saved by grace" did not commence until Christ died.
He had not yet died in His earthly ministry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRex2
Wow. I cannot tell you how rare it is
to find someone who actually gets that.
I strongly disagree with that. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The only difference between salvation before the cross and salvation after the cross is that before the cross a person was saved by believing the promise of the coming deliverer, whereas after the cross a person is saved by believing in the deliverer who has come in fulfillment of that promise.
Paul points out that justification by faith is evidenced in the Old Testament and uses both Abraham and David as examples of men having been justified by faith apart from works. That is the focus of Romans chapter 4. A person is justified and therefore saved by grace through faith and this has always been the case though out human history.
Here are two grace passages. One from the New Testament and its parallel passage from the Old Testament.
Revelation 22:16 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Isaiah 55:1 Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
In both the Old and New Testaments, those who thirst are invited to come to and take the water(s) of life without cost. And that is grace.
It's grace all the way. When the LORD came to Adam after he sinned and spoke of the deliverer who was to come (Genesis 3:15), that was grace. No one at any time was ever saved by the Law which could only condemn because no one could keep it perfectly. The Law simply pointed to Jesus and the need for Him to be our Savior.
I strongly disagree with that. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The only difference between salvation before the cross and salvation after the cross is that before the cross a person was saved by believing the promise of the coming deliverer, whereas after the cross a person is saved by believing in the deliverer who has come in fulfillment of that promise.
Paul points out that justification by faith is evidenced in the Old Testament and uses both Abraham and David as examples of men having been justified by faith apart from works. That is the focus of Romans chapter 4. A person is justified and therefore saved by grace through faith and this has always been the case though out human history.
Here are two grace passages. One from the New Testament and its parallel passage from the Old Testament.
Revelation 22:16 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Isaiah 55:1 Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
In both the Old and New Testaments, those who thirst are invited to come to and take the water(s) of life without cost. And that is grace.
It's grace all the way. When the LORD came to Adam after he sinned and spoke of the deliverer who was to come (Genesis 3:15), that was grace. No one at any time was ever saved by the Law which could only condemn because no one could keep it perfectly. The Law simply pointed to Jesus and the need for Him to be our Savior.
This is true - justification has always been by grace through faith, but full salvation wasn't realized until Christ actually died.
OT saints did not go straight to heaven after leaving the earth, as we do now. Also, possession of the Holy Spirit was temporary in the OT (Saul), whereas now the Holy Spirit resides permanently within believers as a seal of our salvation.
This is true - justification has always been by grace through faith, but full salvation wasn't realized until Christ actually died.
OT saints did not go straight to heaven after leaving the earth, as we do now. Also, possession of the Holy Spirit was temporary in the OT (Saul), whereas now the Holy Spirit resides permanently within believers as a seal of our salvation.
Well, it's true of course that no one was allowed into heaven until Jesus went to the cross. The tearing of the veil in the temple from top to bottom by God Himself at the moment that Jesus died signified that the way into the Holy of holies in heaven was now open. Until that time a believer who died went to Paradise which at that time was located in Hades. Since the time of the cross Paradise is now located in the third heaven as shown in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
It's also true that there was no universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to the church-age. And the relatively few people who did have the enduement of the Spirit could lose that enduement due to sin, or due to having completed the task for which they had been given the enduement of the Spirit. For instance, when David was anointed, he was given the enduement of the Holy Spirit to fulfill his special calling (1 Samuel 16:11-13. The average Old Testament believer never had the enduement of the Spirit. While the means of salvation has always been by grace through faith, the system of spirituality was different in Old Testament times then in New Testament times. We in the church-age require the indwelling and the filling of the Holy Spirit (those are two different ministries) in order to execute the spiritual way of life. But in Old Testament times Jewish believers were called upon to observe the Law of Moses, which no one ever did perfectly.
But in the sense of being delivered or saved from eternal separation from God, that has always been by grace though faith. And once having been saved, that eternal salvation was secure and could not be lost.
You want a very real illustration of that? The first child they had after the fall was Cain. How'd he turn out?
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me"
Psalm 58:3 "Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies"
Solomon said in Ecclesiastes "Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, / no one who does what is right and never sins"
You will point out that none of those books are in the Torah. My response is "so what?" You often quote from your go-to Rabbi to tell us why we're wrong. I will quote to you from actual prophets of God.
I strongly disagree with that. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. The only difference between salvation before the cross and salvation after the cross is that before the cross a person was saved by believing the promise of the coming deliverer, whereas after the cross a person is saved by believing in the deliverer who has come in fulfillment of that promise.
Paul points out that justification by faith is evidenced in the Old Testament and uses both Abraham and David as examples of men having been justified by faith apart from works. That is the focus of Romans chapter 4. A person is justified and therefore saved by grace through faith and this has always been the case though out human history.
Here are two grace passages. One from the New Testament and its parallel passage from the Old Testament.
Revelation 22:16 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
Isaiah 55:1 Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
In both the Old and New Testaments, those who thirst are invited to come to and take the water(s) of life without cost. And that is grace.
It's grace all the way. When the LORD came to Adam after he sinned and spoke of the deliverer who was to come (Genesis 3:15), that was grace. No one at any time was ever saved by the Law which could only condemn because no one could keep it perfectly. The Law simply pointed to Jesus and the need for Him to be our Savior.
There seems to be strong disagreement all around here.....but I think light can be shed on this.....God keeps secrets and grace was one of them. God acted gracefully with Adam and with Abraham but it was not HIS OFFICIAL POLICY at the time. Adam knew almost nothing except stay away from a tree, and Abraham much the same as he existed 500 years before the law. When Moses came on the scene it was most certainly faith+works required.......ALL Jews had to trek to Jerusalem at least once a year with an offering......that's not grace. The law was burdensome and a heavy yoke. Jesus was born under the law and taught under the law ONLY to Israel, the gentiles were just out of luck unless they wanted to convert to Judaism.
God keeps secrets and one of them was a time of grace revealed by revelation to Paul, not the 12 who could barely grasp the concept of grace according to Peter.
Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Below is what Paul says about grace.......
EPH 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the GRACE of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Paul was given the ministry to us Gentiles, something almost unthinkable to Jews until the present day. Also something missed by almost every church group in the country today. Jesus turned to the Gentiles after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, He will restore the Jews in the Millenium and beyond. We will once again be under law in the millenium, but all in the "body of Christ" will be in glorified bodies without sin and keeping the law will be no problem.
There seems to be strong disagreement all around here.....but I think light can be shed on this.....God keeps secrets and grace was one of them. God acted gracefully with Adam and with Abraham but it was not HIS OFFICIAL POLICY at the time. Adam knew almost nothing except stay away from a tree, and Abraham much the same as he existed 500 years before the law. When Moses came on the scene it was most certainly faith+works required.......ALL Jews had to trek to Jerusalem at least once a year with an offering......that's not grace. The law was burdensome and a heavy yoke. Jesus was born under the law and taught under the law ONLY to Israel, the gentiles were just out of luck unless they wanted to convert to Judaism.
God keeps secrets and one of them was a time of grace revealed by revelation to Paul, not the 12 who could barely grasp the concept of grace according to Peter.
Deut 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Below is what Paul says about grace.......
EPH 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto ME the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the GRACE of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Paul was given the ministry to us Gentiles, something almost unthinkable to Jews until the present day. Also something missed by almost every church group in the country today. Jesus turned to the Gentiles after the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7, He will restore the Jews in the Millenium and beyond. We will once again be under law in the millenium, but all in the "body of Christ" will be in glorified bodies without sin and keeping the law will be no problem.
Grace and peace
Vf6cruiser, you're confusing Paul's reference to the church-age (the dispensation of the grace of God) with the fact that salvation has always been by grace. As I pointed out, Paul cited both Abraham and David as examples of men who had been justified, and therefore saved, through faith. I also posted two parallel passages, one from the New Testament and one from the Old Testament which say that the water of life is free. And that's grace.
The dispensations change. And with a change in dispensations come certain changes. But the means of salvation is not one of those changes. Salvation has always, always, always been by grace through faith. The church-age is the dispensation of grace in contrast with the Mosaic Law, but the Mosaic Law was never the means of salvation. God extended grace in the midst of the Law which even when in effect had been given only to Israel. Abraham was saved by grace. So was David. And so was every Old Testament believer.
The Levitical animal sacrificial system which Israel had to observe did not save anyone and only covered sin. Those animal sacrifices were simply types or pictures of the coming Messiah. They provided a graphic visual picture of the work that Jesus would do when He went to the cross. Once Jesus went to the cross His sacrifice ended the requirement to perform those sacrifices because His sacrifice was the anti-type which fulfilled the type.
Well, it's true of course that no one was allowed into heaven until Jesus went to the cross. The tearing of the veil in the temple from top to bottom by God Himself at the moment that Jesus died signified that the way into the Holy of holies in heaven was now open. Until that time a believer who died went to Paradise which at that time was located in Hades. Since the time of the cross Paradise is now located in the third heaven as shown in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
It's also true that there was no universal indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to the church-age. And the relatively few people who did have the enduement of the Spirit could lose that enduement due to sin, or due to having completed the task for which they had been given the enduement of the Spirit. For instance, when David was anointed, he was given the enduement of the Holy Spirit to fulfill his special calling (1 Samuel 16:11-13. The average Old Testament believer never had the enduement of the Spirit. While the means of salvation has always been by grace through faith, the system of spirituality was different in Old Testament times then in New Testament times. We in the church-age require the indwelling and the filling of the Holy Spirit (those are two different ministries) in order to execute the spiritual way of life. But in Old Testament times Jewish believers were called upon to observe the Law of Moses, which no one ever did perfectly.
But in the sense of being delivered or saved from eternal separation from God, that has always been by grace though faith. And once having been saved, that eternal salvation was secure and could not be lost.
I guess the minor difference is in the terms justification and salvation. Often, those terms are used interchangeably.
Justification is about being made righteous before God, which is always by grace through faith.
Salvation is about being delivered (past tense) from the wrath of God. That salvation was not made as final in real time until Jesus was glorified after His death. So I think the reason we don't see the term "saved by grace" (not justified by grace) used until after Acts 2 and in all of Paul's writings is because Jesus had not been glorified until that time.
I guess the minor difference is in the terms justification and salvation. Often, those terms are used interchangeably.
Justification is about being made righteous before God, which is always by grace through faith.
Salvation is about being delivered (past tense) from the wrath of God. That salvation was not made as final in real time until Jesus was glorified after His death. So I think the reason we don't see the term "saved by grace" (not justified by grace) used until after Acts 2 and in all of Paul's writings is because Jesus had not been glorified until that time.
It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you regard the fulfillment of God's promise of the coming Messiah as making more secure the believer's salvation than His promise of the coming Messiah. Was there any chance that God would not have been able to keep His promise? How can it be that a believer today is any more secure in his salvation then Abraham was in his?
If, and it is, true that salvation in Old Testament times was based on believing the promise of the coming Messiah and what He would do, then how can the actual accomplishment of Christ's work on the cross make any more secure the promise of what He would do once He came into the world. God's promise of the coming of the Messiah was so certain as to be a sure thing. And to believe that promise justified and therefore resulted in a person's eternal salvation.
Now let me say this. There are phases or stages of salvation. A person is saved from the penalty of sin at the moment he first believes in Christ Jesus. This was just as true in Old Testament times as it is today. The believer is then saved from the power of sin in his life through the process of experiential sanctification or spiritual growth. This in no way has any bearing on having been saved from the penalty of sin. Then the believer is saved from the presence of sin at the point of physical death when he goes to be with the Lord. Since the time of the cross the believer goes to heaven. Before the cross, the believer went to Paradise in Hades. But he was still saved from the presence of sin.
Again then, how can a believers salvation be any more secure after Jesus went to the cross then before He went to the cross. Doe's not God's promise make sure what He has promised?
And so far as going to heaven, even that is only temporary. Once Jesus returns to the earth and establishes His kingdom on the earth, all who are now in heaven will return to the earth with Him. Heaven will be on earth rather than in heaven.
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