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That's not my problem! If you have a problem with what Paul, Peter, or John is teaching take it up with them. Just because you don't like what is they are saying or find some issue with it or some injustice does not mean you get to mutilate the text. Your desires or wishes of what the text means is of no value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
This is an indictment of the very critical thinking that is demanded of us - to properly divide the scriptures and study to show ourselves approved. What you advocate is unthinking acceptance of whatever is written which is absurd when so much of it is contradictory and inconsistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1
That is utterly foolish Mystic!
I don't advocate unthinking, I advocate proper exegesis of what the writers were saying. It is you and others who are wishing that the text says what it does not. If there is something illogical or unjust about what they are saying then that does not change it one bit and it certainly does not mean that you get to change what they meant because you don't like it.
I think hell and eternal torture is illogical and unloving and does not fit the crime but that is not what Paul was teaching. If you and others have a problem with that then that is your problem with the writers not me.
It is what it is so stop trying to have some Biblical appropriation. I don't accept it but I accept that is what it says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Where did Paul teach eternal torment/hell?
It is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, contrary to popular opinion. But I do appreciate this acknowledgement that "eternal torture is illogical and unloving and does not fit the crime..." That's at the least a reasonable assessment when we have the ability to see things in a different light or age!
Believing that God IS love as Jesus taught and demonstrated is NOT denying Jesus. NOT believing that God is so EVIL that He would torture for eternity or annihilate anyone just for NOT accepting the impossible and inconsistent "precepts and doctrines of men," does NOT make someone a "worker of iniquity." Rejecting those who claim to speak for God through THEIR interpretations of words "written in ink" when they contradict what God has "written in our hearts" in agape love does NOT make someone a "worker of iniquity." I prefer to follow the guidance of the promised Comforter sent in Christ's name to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts."
Jesus isn't lying!
Luke 13
[22] And he [Jesus] went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.[/quote]
Luke 13
[22] And he [Jesus] went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
I've found that when a scripture pops into my head the very first thing I need to do is see how it applies to me. If scripture is inspired and designed for reproof than it's your responsibility to use it to aid yourself.[/quote]
Contrary to popular belief, the workers of iniquity are not the the ones the fundamentalists looked down upon in Jesus' day, the tax collectors, prostitutes and publicans, for they were the ones responding to the glad tidings of Jesus. A closer look at the scriptures and it obvious he was referring to the religious establishment that led the tax collectors, prostitutes and publicans astray by being any other than God like towards them. You won't see me again until you say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord,in respect to their temple, not one stone wil be left on another, you by the hands of wicked men have crucified him, then there is all the woes heaped on them, no such thing was declared against those that hypocrital fundamentalists looked down upon. Only a worker of iniquity would think the sick are the workers of iniquity, the fundamentalists of Jesus' day did not believe they were in need of repentance from their world of religion, a religion which Jesus said was a brood of vipers.
It is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, contrary to popular opinion. But I do appreciate this acknowledgement that "eternal torture is illogical and unloving and does not fit the crime..." That's at the least a reasonable assessment when we have the ability to see things in a different light or age!
I agree. Shiloh, as I understand it, is coming at this from the perspective of a former Christian who once believed in the doctrine of eternal torment. But, since he never left that teaching behind when he was a Christian, he's still arguing from that perspective. I'm just pointing out to him that Paul didn't teach that doctrine.
I've found that when a scripture pops into my head the very first thing I need to do is see how it applies to me. If scripture is inspired and designed for reproof than it's your responsibility to use it to aid yourself.
I agree, and that is what I do, check for myself.
I have nothing to worry about as I know my Savior and God Jesus Christ and His promises.
I'm just posting the OP scripture, but it seems that many here disagree with Jesus in what He warned and have testified against Him, Jesus, and His truth in what He spoke about hell. Many are going to hear Him say for sure, "depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." If they don't repent of their ways.
Luke 13
[22] And he [Jesus] went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.[/quote]
I have nothing to worry about as I know my Savior and God Jesus Christ and His promises.
I'm just posting the OP scripture, but it seems that many here disagree with Jesus in what He warned and have testified against Him, Jesus, and His truth in what He spoke about hell. Many are going to hear Him say for sure, "depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." If they don't repent of their ways.
Luke 13
[22] And he [Jesus] went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
[/quote]
OK I get what you're saying. For what it's worth, I don't think you have anything to worry about either.
Wow, what has happened to your reading comprehension, Jesus spoke it, it is you who thinks He lies as Jesus never lies! And it's His warning to many that if they don't repent they will hear
Him for sure saying, "depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." If they don't repent of their ways.
OK I get what you're saying. For what it's worth, I don't think you have anything to worry about either.
Neither do you.
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