For Believers (and non if interested)--Pagan Christianity Book Thread (preaching, beliefs)

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by aiangel_writer

The pastor was quoted, "This is a blessing for all of us to be here today, that building over there is not Enterprise Baptist Church, you and I are Enterprise Baptist Church."

Amen!

The first church I ever attended was gutted by an arson fire. The fire occurred on Saturday night, and the congregation was at church on Sunday morning, meeting amidst the smoldering ashes (after being assured the building was still structurally sound). Our pastor pretty much said the same thing as the one quoted here.

I remembering us praying for the individual/s who had started the fire. I never once heard a word of condemnation or desire for vengeance, not even for criminal "justice." The leaders were more concerned about the heart of the individual who would do such a thing. Honestly, I don't remember if anyone was ever apprehended because that wasn't a priority. The "church" wasn't a building, it was the people. The building was simply a tool.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by mams1559

We need to take the "right" and "wrong" out of worship. I don't think there is such a thing. If you're expressing your love for Jesus, either through testimony or song or praise or insight, what's it matter when or how that's done? I don't think it should. But for now, in 90% of all churches of any denomination, it does. Hence, the peoples' mindsets need to change for anything else to change.

Originally posted by Alpha8207

So there's only one formula.

Spirit+Truth=Right
Not Spirit and Not Truth=Wrong

You guys are right on!

In light of Alpha's Spirit + Truth = Right, Not Spirit + Not Truth = Wrong, what is Not Spirit + Truth?
(Not Spirit + Truth = ?)

I've got to agree with the idea that there is more vibrancy/life in sermons that are Spirit led rather than rote. But are the rote sermons wrong as long as they are proclaiming the truth? I'd like to hear other people's take on this.

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

(Not Spirit + Truth = ?)

Empty form? I had to think of this verse:

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Back to your other question about sermons:
I don't think that "rote" sermons are wrong... God can (and does) speak through them. If they are actually uncompromisingly bringing out the truth, I'm sure the Spirit is speaking. But many times, don't you think that the Spirit feels a little hampered by a sermon that has been in preparation for many hours, reread, redrafted, insert illustration here...(maybe stroke out "offensive" statement there)... in the end, I guess the biggest question is: Is it a product of man, or the voice of God which can speak to each of our needs in a way that no man can? The message, after all, is from Him. Is it getting through?

[Alpha8207]

Good posts, folks!

And I can't help but think that my hindrance from this thread has been 'on purpose' if you know what I mean.

Regarding your question on the formula, would spirit + not truth = a false teaching?

Isn't it either both or neither?

Just a thought.

Great scripture reference, cg81.

And blueberry another thought.....

You asked about the rote sermon and whether they are wrong. I don't have my book (PC) in front of me but somewhere it talked about the ineffectiveness of a sermon like that. And when I read it I completely agreed. I believe the crux of the matter here is: Are lives being changed and transformed into a more Christlike manner?

If I leave church and say "That was an AWESOME sermon! I can't wait to get back next week and listen to what that preacher has to say!", haven't I missed the point?

Isn't the point----"Now what?"

Isn't the point "What change is this exhortation going to make in my life?"

God has used you (blueberry) to cause that very feeling of being called to a higher level in me in several of your posts. I do not (always) get that feeling from the preacher in my church. We seem to be quite effective of 'saying' what is true, but it's not put into practice very often.

Does that make sense?

So when I read a post here or have a conversation in real life that is Spirit filled, it has a profoundly different effect on me than any sermon(speech) I've ever heard.

God uses the weak to shame the strong, yes?

[cg81]

Sorry, I found some verses and couldn't stop reading...

2Cor 3:1 ¶ Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God–ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
1 ¶ Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

[Miss Blue]

Although I am certainly not against a well thought out written sermon about God, because, imo, that is also spirit inspired..It is a great thing for the writer that He is allowed to share his knowledge, his joy and delight in the lord...But the spirit also works spontaneously in others who are sitting in the pews and worshipping and gives them wisdom and words to edify others, including the preacher. Becaus this person is forced by the rules of worship and what I call "church tiquete" he/she is witholding gift that the spirit has given him to share..

[Blueberry]

The most valuable part of this chapter, IMO, is found on page 100.

If a preacher cannot bring his hearers into a living spiritual experience of that which he is ministering, the results of his message will be short-lived. Therefore, the church needs fewer pulpiteers and more spiritual facilitators. It is in dire need of those who can proclaim Christ and know how to deploy God's people to experience Him who has been preached. On on top of that, Christians need instruction on how to share this living Christ with the rest of the church for their mutual edification. [emphasis added]

I've seen traditional churches be phenomenally successful at this, but I've also seen pretty miserable failures. In the Bible, church leaders are likened unto shepherds. A good shepherd will know how to accomplish the above. Such a shepherd will recognize that one hour a week is insufficient for equipping the body and will motivate the sheep to find all the feeding that is good for them, not just the easy to reach (Sunday morning) feeding.

~~~~~

The author's use of 1 Corinthians 1:17, 22 and 2:1-5 (page 101) prompted me to dig a little deeper. At first blush, it appears that Paul is stating that the use of the Greek method is improper. A look at other Scriptures, though, convinces me there is more.

According to the author, rhetoric is the art of sophists who "were experts at imitating form rather than substance (pg 89)." While that's definitely true, it's not the whole picture. That's only one style of rhetoric; it's called "celebratory" or "epideictic" oratory. This kind of rhetoric employed discourse that was "less about depth and more attuned to style without substance." "In Classical times, many of the great thinkers and political leaders performed their works before an audience, usually in the context of a competition or contest for fame, political influence, and cultural capital. . . . Plato claims that since Sophists appeal only to what seems likely or probable, rather than to what is true, they are not at all making their students and audiences "better," but simply flattering them with what they want to hear." (Wikipedia) I would absolutely agree with the author that Christians employing this type of rhetoric are wrong. I believe this is the type of Greek practice Paul is speaking against in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2.

But there's another aspect of rhetoric that applies to speaking the truth. It is persuasive discourse that incorporates a person's known characteristics and ethics to determine credibility and the use of reasonable/logical argument. (It may also include an emotional appeal.) I believe there is Biblical support for teaching preachers (and all Christians, IMO) the use of this kind of rhetoric.

2 Timothy 2:15 tells us to study to show ourselves approved so we won't be ashamed of our skills and so we can rightly divide the word of truth. I think Christians need to know how to both recognize and construct logical arguments, and they need training on how to identify fallacies in both their own thinking and in any "word" that is presented to them. If I understand correctly, this is part of what is incorporated into homiletics.

1 Peter 3:15 encourages Christians to always be prepared to give a defense/answer to everyone who asks for a reason for the hope within us. The Greek word used in this verse is apologia which means defense. Again, Christians need to learn to construct logical arguments.

Finally, there are many Scriptures that speak of the apostles persuading or attempting to persuade people. (Acts 13:43, 17:3-4, 18:4, 21:14, 26:28, 28:23-24; 2 Corinthians 5:11) Other verses state the various officials charged the apostles with trying to persuade men. Still others talk about how people of faith themselves have been persuaded.

I believe this second type of rhetoric (minus the emotional appeal) is very Biblical. It's a vital part of equipping the saints for every good work. I'm fully persuaded that a preacher can be Spirit led and write out a good sermon ahead of time.

~~~~~

I've just gotta ask this!

On page 86, we are told "the Scriptures do record men and women preaching." Can anyone point me to verses that show women preaching? The only things I can think of are Miriam singing to the women after the Red Sea crossing, Elizabeth greeting Mary, and Deborah and Barak singing a song after Sisera's death and subduing of the Canaanite king.

[Blueberry]

Originally Posted by cg81

Empty form? I had to think of this verse:

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Back to your other question about sermons:
I don't think that "rote" sermons are wrong... God can (and does) speak through them. If they are actually uncompromisingly bringing out the truth, I'm sure the Spirit is speaking. But many times, don't you think that the Spirit feels a little hampered by a sermon that has been in preparation for many hours, reread, redrafted, insert illustration here...(maybe stroke out "offensive" statement there)... in the end, I guess the biggest question is: Is it a product of man, or the voice of God which can speak to each of our needs in a way that no man can? The message, after all, is from Him. Is it getting through?

Not Spirit + Truth = Empty Form . . . I like it!

There is a vibrancy and life to Spirit-filled spontaneity that's hard to beat!

Just to be cantankerous . . . perhaps that sermon that has been prepared for many hours, reread, redrafted, illustration inserted, etc., is actually the product of the Spirit slapping the preacher upside the head and saying, "THIS is what I want you to say."

Originally posted by Alpha8207:
Regarding your question on the formula, would spirit + not truth = a false teaching?

Isn't it either both or neither?

Just a thought.

spirit + not truth = a false teaching . . . I like this, too! (I'm glad you used a lower case "s".)

"Isn't it either both or neither?" I don't think so. I think it's possible to have truthful, Biblical teaching without being Spirit led. Lots of "fallen" preachers have managed this in the past. I even think people listening to such teaching can be convicted or encouraged by the preaching because God says His Word doesn't return void.

I had a couple of things that prompted my question about Not Spirit + Truth. The first is the incident when the apostles were approached about "others" not of their group preaching the gospel message. Essentially, the message was "as long as the truth is being preached, it doesn't matter who's preaching." The second thing is the abundance of Christians who preach the gospel, but don't appear to be listening to the Spirit's leading. (Think Fred Phelps, although most of whom I'm talking about aren't nearly as extreme as him.) Either the truth isn't being expressed in love or it's being expressed at the wrong time or . . . Essentially, the first group of people may actually spread the gospel, but the second group hinders it.

Originally posted by Alpha:
God has used you (blueberry) to cause that very feeling of being called to a higher level in me in several of your posts. I do not (always) get that feeling from the preacher in my church. We seem to be quite effective of 'saying' what is true, but it's not put into practice very often.

Thank you. The feeling is mutual! Mams said something earlier to the effect about how he is energized, encouraged, and challenged when he comes to this forum. (Loose paraphrase!) I agree wholeheartedly!!!!

I'll let you in on a little secret. The internet has saved by Christian sanity, and it is where I come to find meat. In the past, I've had the very great privilege to be involved with some amazing bodies of believers. After moving to the boonies of Alaska, my options for Christian fellowship have been very limited. I read a comment from someone many years ago that kind of put things in perspective for me. The gist was that perhaps God has put me in this place at this time to draw me nearer to Him. I was hungry for meat and didn't always feel like doing my own hunting, so I went to the net. Although I didn't join any forums, I lurked on several and soaked up Christian fellowship and edification. I was introduced to aspects of Scripture that I don't think I would have ever encountered in most church settings, and I think I'm richer for it.

It's frustrating when we see things lacking in the local body of believers. Sometimes, it's worth trying to change things; sometimes, it's probably best to keep quiet and wait on the Lord's leading; sadly, we sometimes have to leave and go elsewhere. I do think it's very important to analyze how we "do church." I'm hoping this book brings up some of the issues that I've seen George Barna address in the past because I agree with many of his insights. So far, I'm disappointed that the book is devoted to tearing down the traditional church rather than explaining some concrete ways we can improve it.

Originally posted by cg81:
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

This verse speaks volumes! Christians will reflect their leaders, whether they be in a traditional church or home church. Some will exemplify godly character and uphold Biblical truth because that is the example that has been set; others won't because of the opposite example. While there are many other influences that can affect a Christians witness (education, entertainment, news media, internet, TV ministries), it is the responsibility of the local body to keep tabs on each other and make sure none are going astray.

[mams1559]

Blueberry, cg81, Alpha, blue, and the others .. your commentaries are outstanding and really cause one to think and expand one's understanding and reasoning beyond common generalities. A gracious thank you, brothers and sisters

Blessings...

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Blueberry

The most valuable part of this chapter, IMO, is found on page 100.

I've seen traditional churches be phenomenally successful at this, but I've also seen pretty miserable failures. In the Bible, church leaders are likened unto shepherds. A good shepherd will know how to accomplish the above. Such a shepherd will recognize that one hour a week is insufficient for equipping the body and will motivate the sheep to find all the feeding that is good for them, not just the easy to reach (Sunday morning) feeding.

Excellent points blueberry! I agree... there is a HUGE diffence between a true "shepherd" and just a "preacher".

Originally Posted by Blueberry

While there are many other influences that can affect a Christians witness (education, entertainment, news media, internet, TV ministries), it is the responsibility of the local body to keep tabs on each other and make sure none are going astray.

Amen. We need to be inspired to action.. not simply inspired to listen!

But there's another aspect of rhetoric that applies to speaking the truth. It is persuasive discourse that incorporates a person's known characteristics and ethics to determine credibility and the use of reasonable/logical argument. (It may also include an emotional appeal.) I believe there is Biblical support for teaching preachers (and all Christians, IMO) the use of this kind of rhetoric.

2 Timothy 2:15 tells us to study to show ourselves approved so we won't be ashamed of our skills and so we can rightly divide the word of truth. I think Christians need to know how to both recognize and construct logical arguments, and they need training on how to identify fallacies in both their own thinking and in any "word" that is presented to them. If I understand correctly, this is part of what is incorporated into homiletics.

1 Peter 3:15 encourages Christians to always be prepared to give a defense/answer to everyone who asks for a reason for the hope within us. The Greek word used in this verse is apologia which means defense. Again, Christians need to learn to construct logical arguments.

Finally, there are many Scriptures that speak of the apostles persuading or attempting to persuade people. (Acts 13:43, 17:3-4, 18:4, 21:14, 26:28, 28:23-24; 2 Corinthians 5:11) Other verses state the various officials charged the apostles with trying to persuade men. Still others talk about how people of faith themselves have been persuaded.

I believe this second type of rhetoric (minus the emotional appeal) is very Biblical. It's a vital part of equipping the saints for every good work. I'm fully persuaded that a preacher can be Spirit led and write out a good sermon ahead of time.

I agree that we need to study.. but isn't the focus on 2 Tim 2:15 on studying and learning more about God and His Word, rather than the proper or best way to rationally present it? The same with 1 Peter 3:15...(the first part of that verse says "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be prepared...) We need to have God's Word in our heart, and thus have an answer for every man. The Spirit will bring these scriptures to mind.. I'm sure we've all experienced this. IMO, to learn how to use persuasive arguments or rhetoric can very easily take the focus off God and place it on man. I believe Paul's focus in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 was much deeper than simply the Greek's type of speaking.. it was the "intellectual" or "man-conscious" spirit behind it.

1 Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

(and that, to the Greeks, was foolishness..)

The next chapter goes along very well with this one...