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No Mystic, I can assure you that I'm not confused. You seemingly want it both ways; for instance:
[1] "I don't reject scriptures" .. then say... "It boggles the mind how anyone can adhere to the simplistic inerrancy doctrine and simple reading of the English text as though it were really God's words "
You think it is all or nothing . . . that is why you are confused.
Quote:
[2] "we ARE responsible for our sanctification" .. then say ... Of course but apparently a large number of Christians do NOT because they think THEY have something to do with it. They do NOT.
One CAN NOT responsible for our sanctification if a Christian believes in salvation is found in Christ and Christ alone.
Sanctification is the process of being made holy \ perfect in Christ and Christ alone.
By placing your faith in being responsible for your sanctification is to place your faith in yourself.
You are confusing salvation and sanctification. Christ saved us. It is a done deal.It is finished. We are to be sanctified under His love for us all by our "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't as His disciples. As his disciple, my faith is in Christ to guide me to the truth God has "Written in our hearts" . . . NOT in myself. Our trust is in "Christ to God-ward" and "our sufficiently is of God."
2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
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Such a faith makes one not a disciple of Christ. And Jesus says so to the man who claimed to have kept the commandments. When you stand before Jesus, he will find that you still lack something and you will have to depart from him. Matthew 25:30-46
One will not stand in front of Jesus justified and sanctified by believing being " responsible for our sanctification" and that "It boggles the mind how anyone can adhere to the simplistic inerrancy doctrine and simple reading of the English text as though it were really God's words "
It would be wrong to think I had anything to do with my salvation . . . for any reason including accepting beliefs ABOUT Christ. But I know we are responsible for our sanctification through "love of God and each other." I will stand unafraid . . . but If ALL I did was believe "X,Y,Z, etc." ABOUT Christ because that is the "milk" I have been taught . . . I would not be very confident of my acceptance. The "Depart from me" verses did not seem to place very high premium on "Say to me Lord, Lord."
It would be wrong to think I had anything to do with my salvation . . . for any reason including accepting beliefs ABOUT Christ. But I know we are responsible for our sanctification through "love of God and each other." I will stand unafraid . . . but If ALL I did was believe "X,Y,Z, etc." ABOUT Christ because that is the "milk" I have been taught . . . I would not be very confident of my acceptance. The "Depart from me" verses did not seem to place very high premium on "Say to me Lord, Lord."
Again Mystic ... you are wanting it both ways.
It is not possible to say "It would be wrong to think I had anything to do with my salvation" then immediately say " But I know we are responsible for our sanctification". This both ways mentality shows itself when you take this plural opinion of the Bible:
"I don't reject scriptures" .. then say... "It boggles the mind how anyone can adhere to the simplistic inerrancy doctrine and simple reading of the English text as though it were really God's words "
Saying "But I know we are responsible for our sanctification" is salvation by the obedience to the law.. and in this case "sanctification" to you is a Jesus that is Swiss cheese, he's there to fill in the holes of your failures.
There is no salvation based on obedience to any law especially the one's you are focusing on. You are wantonly forgetting what the un-summerize demands of the law of love that God demands.
You think it is all or nothing . . . that is why you are confused. You are confusing salvation and sanctification. Christ saved us. It is a done deal.It is finished. We are to be sanctified under His love for us all by our "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't as His disciples. As his disciple, my faith is in Christ to guide me to the truth God has "Written in our hearts" . . . NOT in myself. Our trust is in "Christ to God-ward" and "our sufficiently is of God."
2 Corinthians 3: 2-6 (King James Version)
2Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
It would be wrong to think I had anything to do with my salvation . . . for any reason including accepting beliefs ABOUT Christ. But I know we are responsible for our sanctification through "love of God and each other." I will stand unafraid . . . but If ALL I did was believe "X,Y,Z, etc." ABOUT Christ because that is the "milk" I have been taught . . . I would not be very confident of my acceptance. The "Depart from me" verses did not seem to place very high premium on "Say to me Lord, Lord."
Nothing seems easier than simply saying "I believe X, Y, Z, etc." ABOUT Christ, Twin. I will put my Faith in Christ and His commands to be His disciple, thank you.
John 13:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Again Mystic ... you are wanting it both ways.
It is not possible to say "It would be wrong to think I had anything to do with my salvation" then immediately say " But I know we are responsible for our sanctification". This both ways mentality shows itself when you take this plural opinion of the Bible:
"I don't reject scriptures" .. then say... "It boggles the mind how anyone can adhere to the simplistic inerrancy doctrine and simple reading of the English text as though it were really God's words "
Saying "But I know we are responsible for our sanctification" is salvation by the obedience to the law.. and in this case "sanctification" to you is a Jesus that is Swiss cheese, he's there to fill in the holes of your failures.
There is no salvation based on obedience to any law especially the one's you are focusing on. You are wantonly forgetting what the un-summerize demands of the law of love that God demands.
You are still not understanding what I post as above (or ignoring it) . . . because you still think sanctification and salvation are the same thing. They are NOT. You also think using the filter of the "mind of Christ" to read scripture and correct any ignorance in it . . . is rejecting the scriptures. It is NOT. It is believing Christ about the Father.
There is no obedience to law in my post . . . the two "commands" of Christ fulfill all the law (as Christ did) . . . but following them is HOW we become His disciples. If I expect Him to recognize me (and NOT say "I do not know you") . . . I figure I had best be His disciple AS HE DEFINES IT. Re-read my post above if you still do not get it, Twin.
You are still not understanding what I post as above (or ignoring it) . . . because you still think sanctification and salvation are the same thing. They are NOT. You also think using the filter of the "mind of Christ" to read scripture and correct any ignorance in it . . . is rejecting the scriptures. It is NOT. It is believing Christ about the Father.
There is no obedience to law in my post . . . the two "commands" of Christ fulfill all the law (as Christ did) . . . but following them is HOW we become His disciples. If I expect Him to recognize me (and NOT say "I do not know you") . . . I figure I had best be His disciple AS HE DEFINES IT. Re-read my post above if you still do not get it, Twin.
Justification and sanctification are two different theological concepts that with the incorrect understanding of them will affect whether one is saved or not.
[1] Salvation is based on the belief who Jesus is, who God is, whether Jesus is believed to be an example to follow vs a complete substitute, a co-savior (we are responsible for our sanctification) or as God who is doing the sanctifying.
[2]sanctification is not through by my "love of God and each other." ... that is just not so. Including yourself in sanctification is by default making yourself a co-sanctifier.
Sanctification is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone ... or ... we are responsible for our sanctification
[3] There is to "obedience to law" in your post . . . the two "commands" of Christ.
Since you maintain we are responsible for our sanctification ... un-summerize those two "commands".
Since you maintain we are responsible for our sanctification ... you are placing yourself under the law that demands perfectly keeping the two "commands" of Christ.
The verdict on those who insist "we are responsible for our sanctification" ... will be damned for not doing it perfectly as the law demands.
You are a broken record, Twin . . . either you are NOT reading my posts or you do NOT understand them when you do read them or you are ignoring them to repeat your mantra of rote dogma. Nothing you have said here shows any thought on your part about the issues being discussed . . . just rote memorized dogmatic responses. That is NOT discussion. My job to witness and to clarify what I believe and why . . . is done. I do not see any possibility of making it any clearer to you. If others think it can be done . . . I would welcome their assistance.
I will be the broken record to any post of your's as long as you keep repeating your dogma.
I doubt if anyone can make your beliefs any clearer than yourself. This speaks all we need to know about your beliefs:
.... we are responsible for our sanctification ...
I will be the broken record to any post of your's as long as you keep repeating your dogma.
I doubt if anyone can make your beliefs any clearer than yourself. This speaks all we need to know about your beliefs:
.... we are responsible for our sanctification ...
I have no idea why you think this is such a strange responsibility . . . unless you think we have no responsibility to follow Christ? It has nothing to do with our salvation. We are saved by Christ and by Christ alone. But if you thnk we can just sit on our duffs and do nothing, be responsible for nothing, and still be recognized by Him as a disciple or follower . . . YOU are sadly misinformed, my friend. Our sanctification harmonizes our Spirit with Christ's love for us ALL through the exercise of "love for God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. Sitting around thinking we have no responsibility to Christ is a false teaching that will not serve you well. The "Depart from me . . . I never knew you" problem is not a trivial one.
I have no idea why you think this is such a strange responsibility . . . unless you think we have no responsibility to follow Christ? It has nothing to do with our salvation. We are saved by Christ and by Christ alone. But if you thnk we can just sit on our duffs and do nothing, be responsible for nothing, and still be recognized by Him as a disciple or follower . . . YOU are sadly misinformed, my friend. Our sanctification harmonizes our Spirit with Christ's love for us ALL through the exercise of "love for God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. Sitting around thinking we have no responsibility to Christ is a false teaching that will not serve you well. The "Depart from me . . . I never knew you" problem is not a trivial one.
So much for " do not see any possibility of making it any clearer...If others think it can be done . . . I would welcome their assistance. " , you just can't help yourself , can you.... once again attempting to having it both ways.
Your understanding of sanctification is incorrect by stating .... we are responsible for our sanctification.
Simply you're lying to yourself by thinking .... we are responsible for our sanctification ...is not in conflict with We are saved by Christ and by Christ alone. You are making sanctification contingent on human efforts ... and that is damnable.
I will not read any more responses on this from you.
I will leave to your perceived responsibility and eventual failure if you continue.
I'm a firm believer that Christ is the way to salvation. He was willing to die for our salvation. No one else except Jesus did that for us, so he is the one.
I'm a firm believer that Christ is the way to salvation. He was willing to die for our salvation. No one else except Jesus did that for us, so he is the one.
I have no idea why you think this is such a strange responsibility . . . unless you think we have no responsibility to follow Christ? It has nothing to do with our salvation. We are saved by Christ and by Christ alone. But if you think we can just sit on our duffs and do nothing, be responsible for nothing, and still be recognized by Him as a disciple or follower . . . YOU are sadly misinformed, my friend. Our sanctification harmonizes our Spirit with Christ's love for us ALL through the exercise of "love for God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. Sitting around thinking we have no responsibility to Christ is a false teaching that will not serve you well. The "Depart from me . . . I never knew you" problem is not a trivial one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
So much for " do not see any possibility of making it any clearer...If others think it can be done . . . I would welcome their assistance. " , you just can't help yourself , can you.... once again attempting to having it both ways.
Your understanding of sanctification is incorrect by stating .... we are responsible for our sanctification.
Simply you're lying to yourself by thinking .... we are responsible for our sanctification ...is not in conflict with We are saved by Christ and by Christ alone. You are making sanctification contingent on human efforts ... and that is damnable.
We ARE responsible for our sanctification but NOT our salvation. Thinking we have no responsibility to Christ as His disciples or followers is a false teaching. Our works in "love of God and each other" do NOT EARN us anything but they evidence our sanctification under His love for us all. I intend to make sure it is obvious I am His disciple.
John 13:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
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