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No, it's scriptures view. You know, that scripture that you pick what's Christ-like and what part isn't.
No matter how you read scripture . . . it is ALWAYS YOUR view of what you read. What you call pick and choose . . . I call reading with the "mind of Christ" and properly dividing the scriptures.
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Many people (esp present company) have twisted and cherry picked what's applicable and trust worthy and what part isn't. To the Christian (not self-proclaiming but one who's fruit is evident), the truth of scriptures and
The truth of scriptures is dependent on WHAT they are the truth ABOUT. The OT prophesies are ABOUT Christ. They tell of Him, they tell us how to identify Him. They tell us His status. They tell us how to validate Him through prophesies even long after His death. This is why Christ referred to them . . . to validate Himself . . . NOT because everything in them is absolute infallible and innerrant truth! Nowhere in either testament (OT or NT) are the scriptures described as such. Inspired by God, Yes . . . but not as you believe, Alpha.
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the absolute necessity of Christ Jesus as LORD and SAVIOR isn't even up for debate.
That is the irony, Alpha . . . there is no debate about this at all . . . despite considerable attempts to pretend there is.
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<snip>
I know people like the ones mentioned in that scripture. They introduce new and dangerous doctrines. Saying Christ is "a" way makes Jesus a liar. Universalism makes Jesus a liar. Saying there's multiple ways to heaven makes Jesus a liar.
Christ is THE Way and there are two types of Universalism which cause confusion. Unitarian Universalism which is no faith at all . . . and Christian Universalism which is about the universal reconciliation of human inadequacies (sins, if you will) with God by Christ alone. Since Christ is the ONLY human who attained God's perfect Holy Spirit within His human consciousness . . . He is the ONLY Way we humans can connect to God.
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The Jesus that IS; The Jesus that has been since before time began; The Jesus that IS GOD and is the Great I AM. The Jesus that is THE Jesus....never lied. So that Jesus must be a different Jesus than the Jesus that paid for my sins and is worthy of my worship.
The only disagreement with anything you have said here would be in what YOU think the statements mean. You think Jesus PAID God some horrendous price FOR our sins. I know Jesus accomplished what no other human could and suffered BECAUSE OF our sins and savage barbarity. One assumes God is vengeful and egotistical . . . the other assumes God is loving and merciful to His children who "know not what they do."
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As an aside, I think it's interesting that those with certain beliefs would call God a failure because in both of the instances of righteous destruction mentioned in that trust worthy passage, only a "few" were saved. Yet that's exactly what those twisters of scripture like to tell us means my God is a failure.
The kind of nuances and subtle cognitive distinctions we make today, especially with our extremely flexible and extensive English language . . . would NOT have been possible for our ignorant ancestors and their much less expansive language. They would never have been able to relate to a cumulative "composite consciousness" that contained both Good and Evil. Therefore, they would not understand that the removal and destruction of the Evil from our "composite self" would still leave US and the Good parts. To them (and obviously to far too many Christians today) . . . they were EITHER ALL Evil or ALL Good . . . with a single instance of Evil making them ALL Evil. It is not so. Our entire life is accumulated within our composite consciousness (Self) . . . and it has multiple instances of Good and Evil that must either be repented of or refined out as dross.
It is abundantly clear that you and others believe that Jesus came to save us from a fiery hell and that THAT is what you believe SALVATION is all about.
Silly us. We believe God when he says it.
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If you don't even understand what you need to be saved FROM, you certainly will not understand what you are saved FOR.
lol......says one of the guys that thinks it's wrong to talk about hell.
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This is the legacy and the tragedy of the deep penetration of the ET dogma into the farthest depths of the minds of men and society at large. It is a spiritually deadly prison you have been locked into and have no apparent interest of being set free from. Surely you can understand that if you are wrong about this, you can do NOTHING of God's work in this world. You will be saved as by "fire" but everything else you thought to do to build upon the foundation of Christ will be burnt up. If you are not motivated by pure love, everything you do is vain.
And your happy little world of everyone being saved because your god is too much of a pansy to actually punish anyone for sin is a shame. Besides being untrue and leading people straight into hell.
And your happy little world of everyone being saved because your god is too much of a pansy to actually punish anyone for sin is a shame. Besides being untrue and leading people straight into hell.
"that he [God] gave his one and only son" John 3:16
And for what purpose ....
Acts 2:23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
I am awed that you communicate directly with God . . . otherwise you are just using YOUR interpretation of what other men have written . . . and doing so apparently without knowledge or rigorous scholarship.
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lol......says one of the guys that thinks it's wrong to talk about hell.
The hell YOU believe in does NOT exist, Vizio.
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And your happy little world of everyone being saved because your god is too much of a pansy to actually punish anyone for sin is a shame. Besides being untrue and leading people straight into hell.
God is no pansy and YOU are more likely to have to learn that than are we. Lack of agape love is incompatible with God. We WILL reap what we sow, Vizio . . . so your concerns in that regard are void. We will just NOT reap more than we sow in some mythical eternal torment of the hell in your imagination.
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Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Vizio,
What is love?
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
"that he [God] gave his one and only son" John 3:16
How is that love . . . if as YOU believe He did it to PAY Himself for His own anger and vengeance over our disobedience???
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And for what purpose ....
Acts 2:23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Don't forget the scourging and horrendous savagery endured as a scapegoat to PAY for our disobedience . . . which YOU believe God demanded. You think that is love?
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Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
You actually think that by OUR scourging and crucifying Jesus we PAID God for our disobedience and that is how we were reconciled to God??? This makes sense to you?
Last edited by MysticPhD; 02-27-2013 at 11:10 PM..
I am awed that you communicate directly with God . . . otherwise you are just using YOUR interpretation of what other men have written . . . and doing so apparently without knowledge or rigorous scholarship.
I trust what I can plainly read, along with the scholarship of very smart men over what some internet guy says.
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The hell YOU believe in does NOT exist, Vizio.
You better hope it doesn't. The Bible says differently though. Not that you'd believe it.
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God is no pansy and YOU are more likely to have to learn that than are we.
Your version of a god is a pansy. Of course, God, as the Bible presents him, is not a pansy. He's loving, holy, just, and righteous. All at the same time.
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Lack of agape love is incompatible with God. We WILL reap what we sow, Vizio . . . so your concerns in that regard are void. We will just NOT reap more than we sow in some mythical eternal torment of the hell in your imagination.
Your problem is that you exaggerate one attribute to the neglect of another. In addition to love, he's also just, holy and righteous.
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Don't forget the scourging and horrendous savagery endured as a scapegoat to PAY for our disobedience . . . which YOU believe God demanded. You think that is love?You actually think that by OUR scourging and crucifying Jesus we PAID God for our disobedience and that is how we were reconciled to God??? This makes sense to you?
I thank God that he did. It was a n act of true love that caused him to do it. Greater love hath no man that he would lay down his life.
Your "god"? He loved me thissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss much! He just stretched out his arms and EVERYone goes to heaven!!!! Yay! Doesn't sound very Holy. Or Just. Or Righteous. Sounds like a corrupt, evil god that ignores injustice and sin.
I am awed that you communicate directly with God . . . otherwise you are just using YOUR interpretation of what other men have written . . . and doing so apparently without knowledge or rigorous scholarship.
The hell YOU believe in does NOT exist, Vizio.God is no pansy and YOU are more likely to have to learn that than are we. Lack of agape love is incompatible with God. We WILL reap what we sow, Vizio . . . so your concerns in that regard are void. We will just NOT reap more than we sow in some mythical eternal torment of the hell in your imagination. How is that love . . . if as YOU believe He did it to PAY Himself for His own anger and vengeance over our disobedience???
Don't forget the scourging and horrendous savagery endured as a scapegoat to PAY for our disobedience . . . which YOU believe God demanded. You think that is love?You actually think that by OUR scourging and crucifying Jesus we PAID God for our disobedience and that is how we were reconciled to God??? This makes sense to you?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Your problem is that you exaggerate one attribute to the neglect of another. In addition to love, he's also just, holy and righteous.
You can say with a straight face that eternally torturing anyone for ANY reason could EVER be justice???That makes sense to you?
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I thank God that he did. It was a n act of true love that caused him to do it. Greater love hath no man that he would lay down his life.
What Jesus DID was an act of love . . . but NOT to PAY God for His vengeance and anger over our disobedience. He knew what our ancestors would do to Him because of His Gospel but it was unavoidable given our savagery and barbarity. In our sinfulness and ignorance we could NOT accept His message about God's love for us all. Our ancestors believed in a War God of vengeance and jealousy. It was because of that ignorance and sinfulness that they scourged and crucified Him.
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Your "god"? He loved me thissssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss much! He just stretched out his arms and EVERYone goes to heaven!!!! Yay! Doesn't sound very Holy. Or Just. Or Righteous. Sounds like a corrupt, evil god that ignores injustice and sin.
Because you parody it and clearly do not understand it. There is no free ride. We reap what we sow in this life, Vizio . . . just not the preposterous eternal torment you believe in . . . which is the epitome of Evil and injustice.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 02-27-2013 at 11:55 PM..
as a gay man I feel Christ wants me to search for more ways to my salvation. Christ makes me Gay and Proud because the heavenly father made me Gay. God loves Gay people too.
"that he [God] gave his one and only son" John 3:16
How is that love . . . if as YOU believe He did it to PAY Himself for His own anger and vengeance over our disobedience???
RESPONSE:
Correct! God himself took on human form and was our complete substitute payment for our debt of sin.
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
And for what purpose ....
Acts 2:23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Don't forget the scourging and horrendous savagery endured as a scapegoat to PAY for our disobedience . . . which YOU believe God demanded. You think that is love?
RESPONSE:
Yes.
It was out of love for the Jews for God to have Moses lifted up a snake so that when bitten, all they did was simply believe on God's promise to look upon it and live.
So the same it is with Jesus.
John 3:13-15
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
You actually think that by OUR scourging and crucifying Jesus we PAID God for our disobedience and that is how we were reconciled to God??? This makes sense to you?
RESPONSE:
This is where your dependence on human intellect fails you.
You are under the impression that we are responsible for OUR sanctification.
We did not pay anything to God by the scourging and crucifying anymore than the Jews being bitten by the snakes.
John 3:13-15
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
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