Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
To the men of Galilee since they addressed them. Again I was looking for a reason to combine these events. Do you have one?
My question was "what" not "who".
What event were the angels referring to?
EDIT: If you can show me an event where Jesus physically descended from heaven and appeared in body to His disciples after His ascension, then you are right.. I would have no reason to combine this event with any other.
If not, then I have every reason to believe it is an event to come. I'm not gonna call Him a liar!
Last edited by cg81; 11-25-2008 at 02:48 PM..
Reason: add
No, Jesus did not lie. It was the writers who created his legendary status that did. They thought he was coming back in their time and preached it as such. When things did not materialize the way they expected, they sent their generation and all following generations of Christians into becoming spin doctors to explain away the reason why Jesus has yet to return.
Why the need to even start this charade? Jesus was probably nothing more than one of the many proclaimed messiahs (itinerant preachers) running about the place in first century Judea/Galilee, followed and supported by a motley crew of rebels, disenchanted souls and common folk. These people were living in what they thought were the end times under the hand of the great evil empire - Rome. Naturally, these were people in search of hope and liberation and Jesus supposedly preached such a message even claiming to be the one to start it. This was the message his followers were sent around Israel to preach (according to the Gospels) but then something bad happened on the way to this dream being realized. Jesus was strung up and killed just like just about every other upstart of the time.
So how do you rebuff the critics who scoff at your dead messiah candidate? Well, just tell them he died but he rose from the dead and is off somewhere building mansions and will return again "soon;" like, in your generation. Your job, in the interim, is to continue preaching the message of the kingdom.
While Jesus was alive, he was speaking of a spiritual kingdom, but his return would usher in a physical kingdom which would eradicate all other earthly kingdoms and one that would endure forever. Only one problem; that kingdom never showed up either and so each succeeding generation of Christians are forever repeating the process of their predecessors in seeking converts to join the spiritual kingdom in preparation for the still awaiting physical kingdom to come.
Could it be that Jesus didn't know the time or the day?
It has been argued during many of the heresy debates over the millenia concerning if Jesus was fully human, fully divine, or as most believe both,
that the "human" Jesus did not know.
Only the Father did.
Hi Oakback,
If you are reading the scripture Jesus said they would know the season. When is the day or the hour of the first below 0 day in North Dakota? Can you say? Can you tell me its within the next few months? That is what Jesus said beyond all doubt when he said they will know spring is near.
If you want to completely and deliberately change what the scripture says then all those critics will be interest to add such a chronicle to there anti-Christian refutation which I must agree, that making things up does not make us look good.
Could it be that Jesus didn't know the time or the day?
Good point. He said that plainly, yet it appears that preterists say He was lying.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
It is interesting to note when Jesus said these words.. it was right after He said "heaven and earth shall pass away" and right before He talks about the end of the world and the judgment. While the rest of the chapter preceding these verses has time constraints ("this generation" etc), you do not find any time constraints at all after these verses.
In other words.. I believe that Jesus knew that the destruction of the temple, possibly the tribulation of 70 AD as a certain judgment against the Jews was to occur in "this generation".. however, when the end of the world and the final judgment would occur He did not, and still does not, know.
Which brings me to another question.. how do preterists explain "Heaven and earth shall pass away"?
That Jesus would come just as he left. Perhaps at different times for different people or all at once, it is not clear. What is clear to me it Revelation 1:7 has Jesus coming in the clouds which is not a similar manifestation of God.
It also seems to me after death. Resurrection means to rise.
Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
When God appears or Jesus for example it can be in many forms such as Acts 9.
How did God appear here?
Jeremiah 29
10 For thus says the LORD: After seventy years are completed at Babylon, I will visit you and perform My good word toward you, and cause you to return to this place.
Yet here is an example of coming with clouds as in Revelation1:7
Ezekiel 30
1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“ Wail, ‘Woe to the day!’
3 For the day is near,
Even the day of the LORD is near;
It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.
4 The sword shall come upon Egypt,
And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia,
When the slain fall in Egypt,
And they take away her wealth,
And her foundations are broken down.
I can find lots of examples of what it means to come with clouds.
So again back to me asking for that reason. Did you have a reason why I should combine these events?
That Jesus would come just as he left. Perhaps at different times for different people or all at once, it is not clear.
That's funny that you would say that, because you just got done saying it was said to the disciples, and thinking about preterism's extreme focus on "audience" I find that somewhat out of character. The angels said "YOU"! (or were they lying?)
But anyway, I added to my post after you quoted it, and I explained why I look for this as a future event:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81
If you can show me an event where Jesus physically descended from heaven and appeared in body to His disciples after His ascension, then you are right.. I would have no reason to combine this event with any other.
If not, then I have every reason to believe it is an event to come. I'm not gonna call Him a liar!
Good point. He said that plainly, yet it appears that preterists say He was lying.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
It is interesting to note when Jesus said these words.. it was right after He said "heaven and earth shall pass away" and right before He talks about the end of the world and the judgment. While the rest of the chapter preceding these verses has time constraints ("this generation" etc), you do not find any time constraints at all after these verses.
In other words.. I believe that Jesus knew that the destruction of the temple, possibly the tribulation of 70 AD as a certain judgment against the Jews was to occur in "this generation".. however, when the end of the world and the final judgment would occur He did not, and still does not, know.
Which brings me to another question.. how do preterists explain "Heaven and earth shall pass away"?
Hi cg81,
I would agree with this. I am not clear on the final judgment either but since we are here. It seems to me that we are in the age to come as Jesus mentioned.
I don't really understand why few see the dramatic shift in one context but do so in another. Most people are shocked to see the Old Testament. Look at Joshua and how peoples were annihilated by God's people. Also notice how Israel was separate from all peoples. Now the knowledge is in many nations with believers and unbelievers as neighbors. No Christian goes to war by God's command but it is with the plow share. God's people have beaten their swords into plow shares.
I would agree with this. I am not clear on the final judgment either but since we are here. It seems to me that we are in the age to come as Jesus mentioned.
I don't really understand why few see the dramatic shift in one context but do so in another. Most people are shocked to see the Old Testament. Look at Joshua and how peoples were annihilated by God's people. Also notice how Israel was separate from all peoples. Now the knowledge is in many nations with believers and unbelievers as neighbors. No Christian goes to war by God's command but it is with the plow share. God's people have beaten their swords into plow shares.
Good post.
I am not a "futurist" as you probably have figured out, and I agree with you that there is alot of Old Testament prophecy (e.g. plowshares) that was fulfilled when Jesus came. Many, many verses in the OT refer to the spiritual kingdom we are in now as believers, which futurists mistakenly look for in a future physical reign (which Jesus denied!)
But as I believe that to say that the physical coming of Christ, the judgment, "heaven and earth passing" etc. has happened is going abit too far. I look for this as an event in the future.
That's funny that you would say that, because you just got done saying it was said to the disciples, and thinking about preterism's extreme focus on "audience" I find that somewhat out of character. The angels said "YOU"! (or were they lying?)
You just make things up don't you? Where does it say they will see him come in like manner. Where does it say he will come to you in like manner? It just says he will come in like manner. No wonder....
Acts 1
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
Quote:
But anyway, I added to my post after you quoted it, and I explained why I look for this as a future event:
You mean to say I need to disprove your position by showing he will not ever come in your way and that is your evidence? I need to prove Jesus will not come in your interpretation by waiting until the end of time?
I already proved they are under completely different circumstances. You have us beating our chests and wailing when he comes? It just making things up. You have no reasons . That is why many people laugh at how stupid it all is.
No I don't.. but I do see what you mean. Now that I read it again, the angels didn't expressly say in those scriptures that those same disciples would see Him come "in like manner". Sorry.. my (honest) mistake!
But don't you agree that "in like manner" would seem to mean a physical, literal coming? Also I would find it somewhat odd that the angels would offer this "comfort" to them if it had nothing to do with them, and was simply a random coming "at different times for different people".
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
(or were they lying?)
