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I am not going to debate you on this but I do have a question. There are many verses that have the lord declaring that the faithful will be saved from the tribulation, can we really come up with a definite conclusion of when the rapture will occur without contradicting scripture? What would the purpose be to rapture just before the Mill.?
I have studied several different perspectives on the rapture and honestly I just do not know for sure when it will happen but I do choose to be alert and am willing to suffer if need be.
There is a difference from 'the tribulation' and 'the wrath' of God. Nowhere in those verses does the grammar necessitate that we be removed from the earth. Some of those verses are speaking not of the general wrath that is poured out during the trib. but of the judgment that occurs at the return of Christ - certainly we are not to partake of either of those. The wicked can and will persucute and cause tribulation for believers but the wrath is toward the wicked not the elect. The hour of temption spoken of can refer to the deception perpatrated by the lawless one and his false prophet strarting at the mid point of the trib. when Satan is thrown to the earth and his man institutes the mark. The point being is that we will not be sent the strong delusion from God that II Thess.2:8-12 spoke of.
The purpose of the rapture is simply the purpose of the resurrection but the only difference is that it happens while some are still alive at the return of Christ.
If we simply take the Scriptures for what they say the post-trib position is valid. We do not have to make infrences upon arbitrary definitions of imminence, assume what we are trying to prove, or invent special categories like a pre-trib parousia.
If you think about it where does it explicitly say that the rapture will happen at the begining of the tribulation? It does not. But if you take the coming of the Lord as it is meant to be taken (the 2nd coming - the visible presence and arrival of Christ just like the first coming) then the Bible clearly states that the rapture happens at the 2nd coming. We do not have to change the parousia into somthing it is not.
Hope that helped. If you want specifics I can give them whether lexical, grammatical, or contextual.
I believe Christians will be raptured and this will begin the 7 years of tribulation. So when I stop posting, everyone will know why
Hi ILNC,
Love your posts...but I'd like to ask where you find this in the bible. I am really wondering. I have heard many talk as you do...I just don't see it.
Sincerely
Sherry
Hi ILNC,
Love your posts...but I'd like to ask where you find this in the bible. I am really wondering. I have heard many talk as you do...I just don't see it.
Sincerely
Sherry
I believe it's taught all through out the Bible. Read 1 Thess 4:17 John 14:2-3, Reve 3:10, Matt 24:40-41, Jude:14. Think about it, God loves His children too much to let us go through the horrible things that are going to occur during the tribulation, people think things are bad now, this is a piece of cake compared to what's coming and I know that I won't be here. Keep studying Sherry, ask the Lord to reveal the answers to you and He will.
I believe it's taught all through out the Bible. Read 1 Thess 4:17 John 14:2-3, Reve 3:10, Matt 24:40-41, Jude:14. Think about it, God loves His children too much to let us go through the horrible things that are going to occur during the tribulation, people think things are bad now, this is a piece of cake compared to what's coming and I know that I won't be here. Keep studying Sherry, ask the Lord to reveal the answers to you and He will.
ILNC,
I have studied...but I have a question...
one verse at a time though..I only have few a minutes right now and may not even get to them all
Thess 4:17
If you read Thess 4:16
It says:
(NIV) For the Lord himself come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Thes 4:17
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the lord forever...
okay
Now I can read Rev and find where this occurs in line with the trumpets
Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kindgdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God,
11:17 saying:"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
11:18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great-and for destroying those who destroy the earth.
Anyway, my time is running short...my point is the dead in Christ shall rise first. This comes back to me everytime I think of maybe He is going to take us early.
Rev 11:18 is just as the seventh trumpet is blown. or is this not your opinion?
I have prayed..
I'd like to believe what you believe. But I do not find myself able to because of these verses.
Now, I do believe we are here for the majority of the tribulation...but not during the wrath of God.--(while he is destroying those who destroy the earth)
I hesitated before posting this here on the open forum.
I know how things get sometimes here.
Robin said in another thread..."Many believe there will be a rapture while many do not. Many believe that certain signs have been fulfilled while other believe they have all been fulfilled.
Me, I am still searching and believe there are alot of good theories out there."
Me too. I have always believed that most of Revelation has been fulfilled. With so much talk about the rapture and end times in here lately, I would like for someone, anyone, to tell me what it is they believe the rapture is, and why they feel they will know when Jesus will return.
Thanks!
mzjamiedawn,
when will Jesus return? Nobody knows. I can tell you what the rapture is by what its not:
1. The false teachings on the rapture require one or more of the following:
__A. more than one return of Christ
__B. more than one bodily resurrection
__C. more than one judgment in the future (and an additional one in the case of pretribulationist thought).
This is contrary to John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31ff., and many other places where these events are identified as happening onetime, not multiple times.
2. The false rapture theories ultimately make the Last Day known, which is again a concept contrary to Scripture (Mt. 24:36ff.) Depending on the preferred placement of the rapture in relation to a seven-year period of great tribulation, the Last Day would follow 1,007, 1,003.5 or 1,000 after the rapture.
3. False rapture ideas, particularly of premillennialism, are usually inseparable from forms of dispensationalism that maintain wrong distinctions between "Israel" and "the Church" regarding how God desires to work among them for salvation purposes.
4. False rapture ideas require a secret or unrecognized coming or return of Christ, which is a concept contrary to Acts 1:11and parallel verses that describe his return as visible and obvious to all mankind. Even 1 Thessalonians 4, from which (through the Vulgate) the term "rapture" is derived (1 Th. 4:17) says the event is accompanied by loud command, voice of archangel, and trumpet (v. 16).
5. Millennialism in general and false rapture ideas share the weakness of leading people to become preoccupied with literalistic (as opposed to literal) views of Bible texts. Too often people are led to a preoccupation with end times at the expense of gospel work at the present. The tendency is to try to scare people into God's kingdom with a law-oriented warning rather than to win them through the gospel.
There is a difference from 'the tribulation' and 'the wrath' of God. Nowhere in those verses does the grammar necessitate that we be removed from the earth. Some of those verses are speaking not of the general wrath that is poured out during the trib. but of the judgment that occurs at the return of Christ - certainly we are not to partake of either of those. The wicked can and will persucute and cause tribulation for believers but the wrath is toward the wicked not the elect. The hour of temption spoken of can refer to the deception perpatrated by the lawless one and his false prophet strarting at the mid point of the trib. when Satan is thrown to the earth and his man institutes the mark. The point being is that we will not be sent the strong delusion from God that II Thess.2:8-12 spoke of.
The purpose of the rapture is simply the purpose of the resurrection but the only difference is that it happens while some are still alive at the return of Christ.
If we simply take the Scriptures for what they say the post-trib position is valid. We do not have to make infrences upon arbitrary definitions of imminence, assume what we are trying to prove, or invent special categories like a pre-trib parousia.
If you think about it where does it explicitly say that the rapture will happen at the begining of the tribulation? It does not. But if you take the coming of the Lord as it is meant to be taken (the 2nd coming - the visible presence and arrival of Christ just like the first coming) then the Bible clearly states that the rapture happens at the 2nd coming. We do not have to change the parousia into somthing it is not.
Hope that helped. If you want specifics I can give them whether lexical, grammatical, or contextual.
You make some good points and as I said I am not here to debate but lets try Rev. 3:10, and Luke 21:36 just to name 2, I still do not have my notes, got busy with something else last night. As I said before there are many good theories for all sides and I am prepared for any of the theories to be proven, this is why we must remain vigilant because we do not know for certain but we can hope and pray.
You make some good points and as I said I am not here to debate but lets try Rev. 3:10, and Luke 21:36 just to name 2, I still do not have my notes, got busy with something else last night. As I said before there are many good theories for all sides and I am prepared for any of the theories to be proven, this is why we must remain vigilant because we do not know for certain but we can hope and pray.
Hi Robin!
A smile always lights my face when I see your post.
Remember, just keep faith. Keep Him in your heart. I fully understand the thoughts of "who is right." But the most important thing is to be prepared...as I know you are. I don't know if any theories will be proven to ALL. ---until the time comes.
Sherry, the trumpets in Revelation are not the same trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess 4:17. The trumpet judgments starting in chapter 8 begin the seven bowls of judgments, the trumpet blast here have three purposes, to warn that judgment is certain, to call the forces of good and evil to battle and to announce the return of the Jesus.
Hi Robin!
A smile always lights my face when I see your post.
Remember, just keep faith. Keep Him in your heart. I fully understand the thoughts of "who is right." But the most important thing is to be prepared...as I know you are. I don't know if any theories will be proven to ALL. ---until the time comes.
As you and others have shared with me my dear friend, we must be prepaired for all aspects or one little disappointment could destroy our faith.
Sherry, the trumpets in Revelation are not the same trumpet mentioned in 1 Thess 4:17. The trumpet judgments starting in chapter 8 begin the seven bowls of judgments, the trumpet blast here have three purposes, to warn that judgment is certain, to call the forces of good and evil to battle and to announce the return of the Jesus.
ILNC,
Thank you for your insight...I will read more. It's it amazing when one encourages the other to read the word? I pray you are right....but if you are not, I pray that you will stand strong in your faith. on that note, I will indeed read more..I had assumed that the bowls of wrath did not start until this seventh angel blew the trumpet. So what you write is questioning to me. I will only gain this understanding through reading and praying myself. Thank you.
At least you are one who does not say something and then just disreguard other scripture. This, in itself, is glorifying to God.
I do not say anything to take faith from others...believe with your heart..with every breath you take.
For some reason, I have worried for those who don't think things are coming to pass as He promised.
Take Care and know I am thinking of Him...and you as I continue my day at work. I will read while I'm at work...I pray He allows me this time to spend with Him if it is His will.
Sherry
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