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Old 01-20-2009, 07:43 PM
 
178 posts, read 348,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
HotinAz, I believe that Peter was an apostle of the Lord and I believe that Paul was an apostle of the Lord. I believe that they gave us instructions from the Lord Jesus Christ and I accept this as scripture. It is very clear to me that both Peter and Paul were affirming that we are to respect, be in submission to, pray for those in high positions, those who are in governing positions.

hupotasso=primarily a military term, to rank under; to put in subjection, to subject, in the middle or passive voice, to submit oneself to, to obey, be subject to,

God bless.
Then why was Paul constantly put in jail? An obedient subject of Caesar would not be put in jail. Only one who disobeys his laws when it is in conflict with the Devine Law. Your opinion that the Jews were stirring things up and influencing is not a strong enough argument. There were times the Jews wanted him jailed for preaching Christ's word. The Romans resfused because, much like our country, they permitted many religions in their society. The Romans were in control of sending someone to prison, not the Jews. The Jews submitted themselves unto Casaer and proclaimed him their king. Did Jesus do this? Did any of the apostles do this? Are we to do this? The answer is NO!
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:50 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,138,703 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Then why was Paul constantly put in jail?
Acts 16, Paul was imprisoned wrongfully and was released when the magistrate realized that he was a Roman citizen.

Acts 17. the Jewish leaders stirred the mob up against Paul, saying that he was doing things contrary to Caesar, which he wasn't. They were released.

Acts 18 The Jewish leaders again accused Paul wrongly and Galileo was unwilling to judge him. He let him go.

Acts 19 Paul was cleared of wrongdoing in Ephesus

Acts 21 The Jews from Asia stirred the mob up against Paul and he was imprisoned to find out what the uproar was all about, after being beated by the Jews. Paul was taken to the barracks for his protection in Acts 23.

Acts 23 Paul was moved out of danger and taken to Felix by the soldiers.

The Jews brought accusations against him to Felix, the govenor, who kept him in custody until he could decide his case, then kept him in prison to do the Jews a favor.


Acts 25 Festus sent Paul to Agrippa because Paul appealed to Caesar. He says that Paul has done nothing worthy of death and that he is there because of the accusations of the Jews against him.

Acts 26 Festus says that Paul has done nothing worthy of imprisonment or of death and would be released except for the fact that he (Paul) appealed to Caesar. Paul had done nothing against their law.

Paul states that he was on trial because of the accusations made against him by the Jews. Check out Acts 26:

"In regard to all the things which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today...
and now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers, the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day, and for this hope, O King, I am being accused by the Jews..."


vs 30 and the the King arose and the governor and Bernice, and those who were sitting with them. and when they had drawn aside, they began talking to one another, saying, 'This man is not doing anything worthy of death or imprisonment..."

Quote:
Jews submitted themselves unto Casaer and proclaimed him their king. Did Jesus do this? Did any of the apostles do this? Are we to do this? The answer is NO!
Did Jesus resist them, rebel against them, revolt against them? He could have called ten thousand angels. Remember that song? Did He go with them and allow them to put Him to death or did He refuse to go? Did He command His disciples to fight against them? Did Paul rebel or revolt against the authorities who imprisoned him? Did he instruct the disciples to come and fight them, to revolt against those who imprisoned Him? Are we to do this? The answer is NO! Have we been taught to submit to rulers and the governing authorities? YES! God bless.



"In regard to all the things which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today...
and now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers, the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day, and for this hope, O King, I am being accused by the Jews..." (Acts 26)


1Tim.2:1-7
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Titus 3:1-2
Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.

1Peter 2:13-17
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Rom. 13:1-2
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

We know that Jesus is truly the only King. He has our allegiance. We are not choosing an earthly king over him when we submit to those whom God has placed in positions of authority on the earth. It is the way that He has arranged things. There are rulers, authorities, kings, ect. but Jesus is Lord of lords and King of kings. He is over all and He is ultimately the King of all. It's just like we have earthly fathers/daddies that we submitted to, but we know that God is our true Father because He is over all. The earthly father/daddy has a role/position/purpose, and it temporary but God will always be our Father. When we obeyed our earthly fathers/dads as children did that mean that we were not obeying or choosing him over our Heavenly Father? God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-20-2009 at 08:14 PM..
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:10 PM
 
178 posts, read 348,821 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Acts 16, Paul was imprisoned wrongfully and was released when the magistrate realized that he was a Roman citizen.

Acts 17. the Jewish leaders stirred the mob up against Paul, saying that he was doing things contrary to Caesar, which he wasn't. They were released.

Acts 18 The Jewish leaders again accused Paul wrongly and Galileo was unwilling to judge him. He let him go.

Acts 19 Paul was cleared of wrongdoing in Ephesus

Acts 21 The Jews from Asia stirred the mob up against Paul and he was imprisoned to find out what the uproar was all about, after being beated by the Jews. Paul was taken to the barracks for his protection in Acts 23.

Acts 23 Paul was moved out of danger and taken to Felix by the soldiers.

The Jews brought accusations against him to Felix, the govener, who kept him in custody until he could decide his case, then kept him in prison to do the Jews a favor.


Acts 25 Festus sent Paul to Agrippa because Paul appealed to Caesar. He says that Paul has done nothing worthy of death and that he is there because of the accusations of the Jews against him.

Acts 26 Festus says that Paul has done nothing worthy of imprisonment or of death and would be released except for the fact that he (Paul) appealed to Caesar. Paul had done nothing against their law.

Paul states that he was on trial because of the accusations made against him by the Jews. Check out Acts 26:

"In regard to all the things which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today...
and now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers, the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day, and for this hope, O King, I am being accused by the Jews..."


vs 30 and the the King arose and the governor and Bernice, and those who were sitting with them. and when they had drawn aside, they began talking to one another, saying, 'This man is not doing anything worthy of death or imprisonment..."

Jews submitted themselves unto Casaer and proclaimed him their king. Did Jesus do this? Did any of the apostles do this? Are we to do this? The answer is NO!

Did Jesus resist them, rebel against them, revolt against them? He could have called ten thousand angels. Remember that song? Did He go with them and allow them to put Him to death or did He refuse to go? Did He command His disciples to fight against them? Did Paul rebel or revolt against the authorities who imprisoned him? Did he instruct the disciples to come and fight them, to revolt against those who imprisoned Him? Are we to do this? The answer is NO! Have we been taught to submit to rulers and the governing authorities? YES! God bless.



"In regard to all the things which I am accused by the Jews, I consider myself fortunate King Agrippa, that I am about to make my defense before you today...
and now I am standing trial for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers, the promise to which our twelve tribes hope to attain, as they earnestly serve God night and day, and for this hope, O King, I am being accused by the Jews..." (Acts 26)


1Tim.2:1-7
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Titus 3:1-2
Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.

1Peter 2:13-17
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Rom. 13:1-2
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
We cannot submit ourselves and be subject to two masters. One is opposed to the other. One conflicts with the other. When God's Law is not what man's law recognizes or follows, we must choose whose law we are to follow. Does God give conflicting commands? If He tells us we are free and have dominion over the earth, why must we ask permission of the state (via licenses) to do the things God has ordained us to do already. Study of man's law will reveal the fraud. We are trained to be fictions in law rather than flesh and blood servants of Christ. The numbers attached to us as well as our licenses are just two of many ways we are fooled into submission. We are to submit to Godly governments who follow His Law. The power they have comes from God. They are responsible to uphold His commands. When they don't, we owe no obedience. The fact that they can use force against us is no proof of God's will, it's just the opposite.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,138,703 times
Reputation: 1328
We do not have 2 masters, antjraf when we obey God's instructions to submit to and pray for those who are our rulers and who are governing authorities. We are following our Master's instructions. The rulers of the days of Jesus and the apostles did not follow God's laws all times, yet Jesus submitted to them. The Romans were a pagan nation, yet Jesus paid His taxes and He submitted to them when they put Him to death. This was an ungodly act, yet He submitted. They were wrong to do this, yet Jesus submitted to them. King Agrippa did not follow all of God's laws at all times, yet the apostle Paul did not revolt against him. He even called him King and he taught the disciples to submit to the rulers and governing authorities. God's word, not mine. God bless.

1Tim.2:1-7
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Titus 3:1-2
Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.

1Peter 2:13-17
13Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
16Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

Rom. 13:1-2
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-20-2009 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:40 PM
 
178 posts, read 348,821 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
We do not have 2 masters, antjraf when we obey God's instructions to submit to and pray for those who are our rulers and who are governing authorities. We are following our Master's instructions. The rulers of the days of Jesus and the apostles did not follow God's laws all times, yet Jesus submitted to them. The Romans were a pagan nation, yet Jesus paid his taxes and he submitted to them when they put him to death. This was an ungodly act, yet He submitted. King Agrippa did not follow all of God's lawas at all times, yet the apostle Paul did not revolt against him. He even called him King and he taught the disciples to submit to the rulers and governing authorities. God's word, not mine. God bless.
When did Jesus pay taxes? In fact, this was one of the final accusations that the Pharisees used against him, that he teaches his followers not to give tribute. The only instance when Jesus paid a tax was when Peter responded to the tax collector that Jesus did pay taxes. But Jesus prevented Peter from paying the tax. He then instructed Peter to put a hook in the water and catch a fish, and give the money from its mouth and pay it. This was a chastisement of Peter for not answering according to God's law. He made Peter work, (commerce) and rendered unto Caesar the fruit of that work.

We cannot follow conflicting commands. If God commands us to follow His law and government commands us to break His law, what are we to do? Submit to man? I'm sorry, there is no scriptual support for this.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,273,104 times
Reputation: 4279
I have to admit, when they swore in Joe Biden as the Vice-President they used a Bible the likes of which must have weighed close to a half-ton. I honestly thought they were using the Lincoln Bible for both oaths and when I saw it I thought to myself "Lincoln surely did not strike me as a gaudy and over-the-top President... I'm surprised he had a Bible that large at his inauguration."

Then, of course, they quickly cut over to Obama with his hand on the much smaller Bible and it made a lot more sense to me. That was certainly reflective of Lincoln the President. At least, what I can glean from his personality from reading history.
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Old 01-21-2009, 07:41 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,260,063 times
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Quote:
Christians who submit to the governing authorities and who pray for them are not claiming that the governing authorities are greater than God. We are not choosing the president over our Creator. I know who is King of kngs and Lord of lords. Since I know this, I am mindful of and submit to God's instructions to respect the positions, and authority of those who are governing authorities and I pray for them.
Amen.... it is all about respect!

This may sound silly but don't we obey the law when we drive our cars, if it says, 55mph does one not obey that law? It is not that one is bowing down to the one making that law, but obeying that law that God has appointed for our safety.
God expects us to obey the laws and pray for those He has appointed to govern the people.... has nothing to do with bowing down and worshiping those individuals who made the law.

OK now, if they establish the law and legalize abortion..... that means a Christian knows this law is wrong in the sight of God and therefore even if it is a law, that Christian is not to obey that law in their lives by doing it. That authority who passes such laws will be themselves in subjection to God for that.......not the Christian.

But say if a Christian does get an abortion ( I so hope not) they have compromise and not obeyed God. They have went along with those in opposition of God's law considering life and I would say they are placing those individuals authority above God's..... they are then obeying those in opposition to Gods known will.

That is what one is trying to project here. Because we are to respect the laws of the land, (only if they honor God).....which majority so far do.....

And we are to pray and respect the president of the United States of America, in doing this we are honoring and respecting God, and His choice in whom He has placed in authority of the people.....regardless if we like him or not!
God has appointed Obama as president....if that president does things in opposition of God, he and all who follow him are the one's who will answer God, not me or any other Christian....is how I see the Lord would have my life to follow!!!

Rom. 13:1-2
1. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves
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Old 01-21-2009, 08:20 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,626,443 times
Reputation: 3759
Moderator cut: deletion
BYW, there was a boo boo at the swearing in, and the Lincoln Bible was totally forgotten!

Last edited by june 7th; 01-23-2009 at 04:13 AM.. Reason: Marian - Use "Report Post" feature when necessary. It helps! Thanks! June. :)
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Old 01-21-2009, 08:44 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 4,007,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Towhee View Post
My word...this thread has certainly got OT !
BYW, there was a boo boo at the swearing in, and the Lincoln Bible was totally forgotten!
Where did you hear this?
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: NW Arkansas
3,978 posts, read 7,626,443 times
Reputation: 3759
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
Where did you hear this?
On the TV news, by the reporters who were there.
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