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John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus took away the "sting of sin" which in some minds is hell.
I am not saying he actually went there physically... remember I don't believe there is a hell. I was using the concept of hell to show that if you give your life for another even if it means going to hell for them, you don't really go to hell because Jesus did the same thing and ended up at the right hand of God.
That is all I was saying. You are getting caught up in the words.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus took away the "sting of sin" which in some minds is hell.
I am not saying he actually went there physically... remember I don't believe there is a hell. I was using the concept of hell to show that if you give your life for another even if it means going to hell for them, you don't really go to hell because Jesus did the same thing and ended up at the right hand of God.
That is all I was saying. You are getting caught up in the words.
I was using the concept of hell to show that if you give your life for another even if it means going to hell for them, you don't really go to hell because Jesus did the same thing and ended up at the right hand of God.
.
That might be your point...but it's a silly point.
My point is this , and I will let you judge if my point has any merit?
My point:
That hell is forever...that the lost have no chance, and will never stop bruning in hells everlasting flame.
That the pain of hell is unable to be understood this side of death's door.
and that even knowing this, I believe that if it were allowed, I would change places with another who was suffering in this hell.
I feel that to understand the Christian walk, is to place yourself into hells fire in the place of another.
Even if knowing you will never get out, never stop burning, never stop feeling the ever-burning loss....you still take the place of the other...even the place of a stranger, or a foe...
That is the true Christian walk.
There is no value in taking the place of someone if you will both end up sitting in the shade of a tree by the end of the day anyway.
There is no value in saying, 'Oh i would go to hell for another person" if in the back of your mind you know full well you have a "GET OUT OF HELL FREE" card in your back pocket.
That it a weak act of a Christian's love.
A stronger act of love is to take the place of a person with no chance of ever being saved again...
Zero...none....zip....nothing.
No chance of ever getting out of hell...
Actually it is His work that brings us to repentance and trust in him. There is no way to trust in someone you do not know.
I would hope by now you would concede this argument.
Eph 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-
Grace means to pardon. God's gift of righteousness, salvation, and grace is not a choice it is given freely and he will do the work to draw all men unto him.
Psalm 66:5
Come and see what God has done, how awesome his works in man's behalf! 1 Cr. 12:6
There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
It is selfish and arrogant to think you have anything to do with your salvation. It is God's work in you, not yours.
Your faith and trust will produce the works of righteousness not righteousness.
Psalm 22 starts out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" you should read it. All men are saved by God, and there is nothing a man can do to further his salvation. Not faith, not works, nothing.
Ephesians 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
But keep boasting that you had something to do with your salvation if that makes it easier for you to believe that those who don't work for their salvation are somehow less than you.
Kat they can't concede to the fact it's God's goodness that leads and causes us to repent because it would mean trusting solely in the goodness of God plus nothing for their salvation, that is to much of a huge step in the dark for most of fundamental organized christianity.
That might be your point...but it's a silly point.
My point is this , and I will let you judge if my point has any merit?
My point:
That hell is forever...that the lost have no chance, and will never stop bruning in hells everlasting flame.
That the pain of hell is unable to be understood this side of death's door.
and that even knowing this, I believe that if it were allowed, I would change places with another who was suffering in this hell.
I feel that to understand the Christian walk, is to place yourself into hells fire in the place of another.
Even if knowing you will never get out, never stop burning, never stop feeling the ever-burning loss....you still take the place of the other...even the place of a stranger, or a foe...
That is the true Christian walk.
There is no value in taking the place of someone if you will both end up sitting in the shade of a tree by the end of the day anyway.
There is no value in saying, 'Oh i would go to hell for another person" if in the back of your mind you know full well you have a "GET OUT OF HELL FREE" card in your back pocket.
That it a weak act of a Christian's love.
A stronger act of love is to take the place of a person with no chance of ever being saved again...
Zero...none....zip....nothing.
No chance of ever getting out of hell...
Tell me you would do that?
Yes I would do that even with your destination of hell in mind. I said that I was assuming hell to be a real place, even though I don't believe it is what you describe.
I would do that because: John 15:12-13
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Deuteronomy 30:6
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
1 John 4:7-8
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Revelation 1:6
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Anyway, there are tons of verses telling us to love each other, our enemies, brothers, friends.... If there was a choice, I would have to give my life.
The question is... can one go to hell for another if the act of going there itself is cause not to go there?
Kat they can't concede to the fact it's God's goodness that leads and causes us to repent because it would mean trusting solely in the goodness of God plus nothing for their salvation, that is to much of a huge step in the dark for most of fundamental organized christianity.
Yes! they attribute my willingness to take on someone else's punishment in hell to the fact that I don't believe there is one. Yet when they say Hell I have a darn good idea what it looks like!
Weird that all the "real" christians would rather be with God than in hell for another person's sins.
God teaches otherwise and trust in his grace empowers you, while hell and ET and end times fantasies burden you with fear.
Yes! they attribute my willingness to take on someone else's punishment in hell to the fact that I don't believe there is one. Yet when they say Hell I have a darn good idea what it looks like!
Weird that all the "real" christians would rather be with God than in hell for another person's sins.
God teaches otherwise and trust in his grace empowers you, while hell and ET and end times fantasies burden you with fear.
That is ironic isn't it ... ? We are by the very definition of the word "willing" to risk our mortal souls according to the teachings of the traditional and orthodox doctrines in order to set people free. We do this out of love for all mankind, at the risk of being anethema and persecuted by so called fundamentalist "Christians".
I don't know what the rest of you think about Near Death Experiences, but in the last year I have taken a serious interest in them. I have listened to/read countless testimonies about the afterlife and try to understand how they might apply to my faith.
I watched one yesterday where a man described a rather unpleasant out-of-body experience. He said he could see both the physical and spiritual world, and realized that he was not in a good spiritual environment (hell?). He said he was made to understand that if he completely left his body, he would be stuck in that place forever. And that got me to thinking:
I think this has been addressed in other threads, but it is especially relevant here. What makes a man a living being, is it his body or his soul? Well, if the soul depended on the body for life, then the afterlife would not be possible. But the body does in fact depend on the soul. Notice the order of creation-Adam did not become a "living soul" until life was breathed into his flesh. It wasn't the other way around. So why then does God's offer of grace and forgiveness extend only to the flesh? Isn't a man's soul the essence of his being? Isn't that the part that is important to God? If our mortal life is the decider of our eternal fate, shouldn't our mortal bodies be eternal?
And another thing. Although one's "eternity" may begin when they enter the spiritual plane, this event happens before the end of time for others. Basically, even though you are not still abiding by the laws of time, they do exist in a parallel universe, and thus we have not yet reached the fulfillment of God's purpose. I think it would be impossible for anyone to definitively say that there is an eternal hell, even if they've seen it, because creation has not yet been completed. Is it possible that these spiritual realms are just holding places until the "end of time"? What are your thoughts?
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