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ILNC, I appreciate your answer, and your heart seems to be in the right place. That is why I wish you could understand the UR point of view.
But look at your answer. You contradict yourself. You say God does not want robots. Then why do ALL bow and confess He is Lord?!??!? Does God force them to bow and confess a phony confession? Wouldn't that be forcing them against their will?
If God really didn't want robots, according to your theology only a few would be bowing and confessing, the ones who truly believe and love the Lord. Yet scripture tells us ALL bow and confess, and even goes so far as to say ALL swear allegiance and gladly praise Him!
Why is someone swearing allegiance and happily praising God, if he knows he will be spending eternity in hell?
Think about this.
Sorry I cannot consider something that contradicts the Bible.
Yes God does not want robots, and yes everyone will bow and confess He is Lord someday, but it will because they realize finally who He is, but for some it will be too late.
Will every knee bow and tongue confess?
Would you admit that billions of people have not had the opportunity that you have had to know Jesus?
Would you admit that the rich man in Jesus`s PARABLE did not want to be where he was?
Ask yourself one question..who in their right mind would want to spend forever and ever and ever in white hot burning flames of sulphur and brimstone? Who in their right mind would want their kids to be there?
Most people do not understand what they are rejecting!
No ,it is what you have been TAUGHT the bible teaches. But a deeper study into scripture reveals that God will indeed BRING ALL to repentance. He can do it. Don`t underestimate God.
Yes every knee will bow and every tongue confess, God said so. But He also provided away for everyone to know the truth, Romans 1:19-20 say so. And verse 20 says they have no excuse for not knowing God. Do think God does not the power to reveal Himself to everyone?????? Don't underestimate God.
And NO eternal hell is what the BIBLE, God's Word teaches, that is what the Holy Spirit who reveals truth has revealed to me.
Read "23 Minutes in Hell" and realize the it is eternal torment and you have no hope of escape if dont believe Christ and after you died you cannot choose for I is too late.
It doesn't matter what I think, only what scriptures says!!!!
Hi Miss Shawn
First off, let me answer this question.
Quote:
But where does it say that those who are in hell who are being punished will then be in heaven?
There is no "one" verse that specifically says that. That's the answer. But, just because there is no one verse that specifically says that does not mean that the holy spirit will not lead us to see that from scripture as a whole.
As to what I said about you holding yourself to a different standard than what you may ask of others. I want to make you aware that I am not intending to be mean spirited by saying this. I am perhaps only perceiving it as such, if there is a good explanation, fine by me, that will be the end of it.
Such as this statement of yours.
Quote:
Hell is real, like it or not.
Define Hell.
Give me a verse that says HELL is real. All the sources I rely on do not even contain the word Hell at all. So what does it mean to me that someone says Hell is real? Nothing!
I am only reading scripture. I have access to translations that contain the word hell but these translations seem to just dump the word hell in association with these words, Sheol, gehenna, tartarus, hades, so I do not even see how I can rely on them. And none of them contain the phrase "hell is real". So can you provide one that contains the words "hell is real".
Most of your other questions are along the same lines. You want me to provide verses that say specific things as if you're saying that since I cannot find them based on your wording and expectations, I am in error.
But the verse we talked about concerning David's prayer the verse in question does not state that it is about Davids lowly state, those words are not there. You can use other verses to come to that conclusion, however. But if the prayer is only from david, then the scripture is useless and meaningless. It will only have ANY meaning if you can arrive at a conclusion that you can say the same prayer yourself. Nothing in that passage says you can say the same prayer. It is Davids prayer.
I will answer that I cannot provide you with verses where you expect a specific set of words. But I am not required to meet your expectations.
To me 1 timothy 2:4 says what God will do and I have no reason to doubt that. None!
Isaiah 46:10 says "Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do."
What reason do I have to think God will not do what he says he will do?
If a "translation" says that some will go to hell, then I have no reason to assume they will stay there, because if God will's all mankind to be saved, then thats what will happen, those in hell can be reasonably thought to not stay there if God is going to save them.
And if someone is saved, is it reasonable to think they will be in heaven.
Based on that, if I cannot provide a verse that is worded like you ask, it does not mean the bible doesn't contain that message.
Part of all of that is contradiction.
Ti 1:9 upholding the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able to entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict.
I would say if God wills all mankind to be saved and someone says not all are saved, that is a contradiction.
Give me a verse that says "not all are saved".
Anyway, that might not be a satisfactory post to you, you can have the last word as this appears to not be producing much fruit, and if that is my fault, then I accept responsibility, no problems here.
I will be off to find other ways that are more productive.
God loves us enough to respect the choice of those who reject Him. It breaks His heart, but He is not going to force anyone to believe and accept Jesus. I understand you don't want to believe some people are going to hell forever, but it IS what the Bible teaches.
Sorry I cannot consider something that contradicts the Bible.
Sorry,too late for that. The theology that you`ve been taught and now adhere to totally contradicts the bible, you just can`t see it.
Quote:
Yes God does not want robots, and yes everyone will bow and confess He is Lord someday, but it will because they realize finally who He is, but for some it will be too late.
So, they will FINALLY realize...meaning they didn`t realize before. Exactly!! God works through you when you don`t even realize it. Out of the mouth`s of babes. You are right, they don`t realize ..their eyes have not been opened to the truth. But there will come a day when they DO realize it. But let not your heart be troubled. God will not shut the door on them like you seem to want to do. Thank God he is in control and not you. Thank God he is more merciful than you seem to be.
Sorry I cannot consider something that contradicts the Bible.
Yes God does not want robots, and yes everyone will bow and confess He is Lord someday, but it will because they realize finally who He is, but for some it will be too late.
WHAT is contradicting the bible?
It says every person in existence swears allegiance to God. Read it for yourself:
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Swear allegiance means a willing oath of loyalty, done out of love and joyous acknowledgment.
And you are saying universalism needs to turn everyone into robots so they can all be saved?!?!? LOL
If I am to believe the doctrine of eternal torment, I would say it is this eternal torment doctrine that turns people into robots so they can swear allegiance before they all go into hell.
And then it turns everyone else in heaven into robots so they will forget about those in hell...
Hi Miss Shawn
First off, let me answer this question.
There is no "one" verse that specifically says that. That's the answer. But, just because there is no one verse that specifically says that does not mean that the holy spirit will not lead us to see that from scripture as a whole.
As to what I said about you holding yourself to a different standard than what you may ask of others. I want to make you aware that I am not intending to be mean spirited by saying this. I am perhaps only perceiving it as such, if there is a good explanation, fine by me, that will be the end of it.
Such as this statement of yours.
Define Hell.
Give me a verse that says HELL is real. All the sources I rely on do not even contain the word Hell at all. So what does it mean to me that someone says Hell is real? Nothing!
I am only reading scripture. I have access to translations that contain the word hell but these translations seem to just dump the word hell in association with these words, Sheol, gehenna, tartarus, hades, so I do not even see how I can rely on them. And none of them contain the phrase "hell is real". So can you provide one that contains the words "hell is real".
Most of your other questions are along the same lines. You want me to provide verses that say specific things as if you're saying that since I cannot find them based on your wording and expectations, I am in error.
But the verse we talked about concerning David's prayer the verse in question does not state that it is about Davids lowly state, those words are not there. You can use other verses to come to that conclusion, however. But if the prayer is only from david, then the scripture is useless and meaningless. It will only have ANY meaning if you can arrive at a conclusion that you can say the same prayer yourself. Nothing in that passage says you can say the same prayer. It is Davids prayer.
I will answer that I cannot provide you with verses where you expect a specific set of words. But I am not required to meet your expectations.
To me 1 timothy 2:4 says what God will do and I have no reason to doubt that. None!
Isaiah 46:10 says "Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do."
What reason do I have to think God will not do what he says he will do?
If a "translation" says that some will go to hell, then I have no reason to assume they will stay there, because if God will's all mankind to be saved, then thats what will happen, those in hell can be reasonably thought to not stay there if God is going to save them.
And if someone is saved, is it reasonable to think they will be in heaven.
Based on that, if I cannot provide a verse that is worded like you ask, it does not mean the bible doesn't contain that message.
Part of all of that is contradiction.
Ti 1:9 upholding the faithful word according to the teaching, that he may be able to entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict.
I would say if God wills all mankind to be saved and someone says not all are saved, that is a contradiction.
Give me a verse that says "not all are saved".
Anyway, that might not be a satisfactory post to you, you can have the last word as this appears to not be producing much fruit, and if that is my fault, then I accept responsibility, no problems here.
I will be off to find other ways that are more productive.
Quote:
But the verse we talked about concerning David's prayer the verse in question does not state that it is about Davids lowly state, those words are not there. You can use other verses to come to that conclusion, however. But if the prayer is only from david, then the scripture is useless and meaningless. It will only have ANY meaning if you can arrive at a conclusion that you can say the same prayer yourself. Nothing in that passage says you can say the same prayer. It is Davids prayer.
Actually it does. The title is named David's prayer and foot notes say also. If you study the verse, you will be pointed to David. No it is not useless, because he wrote it, but my point is, who was he writing it for, himself.
Quote:
Give me a verse that says "not all are saved
Proverbs 19:9
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will perish.
Psalm 73:27
Those who are far from you will perish; you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.
Isaiah 41:4
All who rage against you will surely be ashamed and disgraced; those who oppose you will be as nothing and perish.
Matthew 10:28
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Are you happy that the wicked will end up in hell, being torture for millions of centuries upon billions of centuries with no end in sight for all eternity?
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God loves us enough to respect the choice of those who reject Him. It breaks His heart, but He is not going to force anyone to believe and accept Jesus. I understand you don't want to believe some people are going to hell forever, but it IS what the Bible teaches.
Out of the mouth`s of babes. You are right, they don`t realize ..their eyes have not been opened to the truth. But there will come a day when they DO realize it. But let not your heart be troubled. God will not shut the door on them like you seem to want to do. Thank God he is in control and not you. Thank God he is more merciful than you seem to be.
