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Are you happy that the wicked will end up in hell, being torture for millions of centuries upon billions of centuries with no end in sight for all eternity?
Are you happy that the wicked will end up in hell, being torture for millions of centuries upon billions of centuries with no end in sight for all eternity?
No, I am not
Ok, I am glad.
So let us imagine for a second. Suppose your doctrine of eternal torment is incorrect. Suppose you, along with millions of others, have been misled.
Wouldn't you want to know the truth? Would it be worth your while to do some honest scholarship to determine what the truth is?
Don't you want to know why there are so many people here who believe that God will ultimately save all people? Do you think we are just dreaming or making this stuff up?
Or is it better to just defend Eternal torment, even when the arguments for Eternal Torment, both scripturally and logically, are completely unreasonable?
What I am saying is we need to set doctrine aside, look at all the evidence, study the word, in some cases look at the greek, and come to the truth.
There is enough confusion over the word "hell" itself to immediately cast doubt on the whole doctrine of eternal torment.
If you really don't want people to be burning forever, don't you owe it to yourself to find the truth?
So let us imagine for a second. Suppose your doctrine of eternal torment is incorrect. Suppose you, along with millions of others, have been misled.
Wouldn't you want to know the truth? Would it be worth your while to do some honest scholarship to determine what the truth is?
Don't you want to know why there are so many people here who believe that God will ultimately save all people? Do you think we are just dreaming or making this stuff up?
Or is it better to just defend Eternal torment, even when the arguments for Eternal Torment, both scripturally and logically, are completely unreasonable?
What I am saying is we need to set doctrine aside, look at all the evidence, study the word, in some cases look at the greek, and come to the truth.
There is enough confusion over the word "hell" itself to immediately cast doubt on the whole doctrine of eternal torment.
If you really don't want people to be burning forever, don't you owe it to yourself to find the truth?
When I look at scripture, I don't look at it based on doctrine. I look at it for what it says. Confusion comes when people try to read between the lines instead of reading the scripture and taking it for what it says.
Quote:
Don't you want to know why there are so many people here who believe that God will ultimately save all people? Do you think we are just dreaming or making this stuff up?
Well, now I do, because I don't see the scripture to prove your belief or your explanation either.
I don't focus my time or spend alot of time on how long hell will be. My only concern is knowing and understanding what scripture says.
Some univ. say that they believe that God will punish persons in hell for an age, ok, well, if He does, does it say that God will then bring them from hell into His presence? But if you flipped the question around on me, and said does it say that they want be with God? Well, it does because they are being destroyed, and it doesn't say that God is restoring them in His presence.
See, I don't see any prove in scripture. I only see that God will punish and destroy the wicked. So, I am just reading scripture. I'm not against univ. I just don't see any scripture to back it up.
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 07-10-2009 at 10:40 PM..
When I look at scripture, I don't look at it based on doctrine. I look at it for what it says. Confusion comes when people try to read between the lines instead of reading the scripture and taking it for what it says.
Well, now I do, because I don't see the scripture to prove your belief or your explanation either.
I don't focus my time or spend alot of time on how long hell will be. My only concern is knowing and understanding what scripture says.
Some univ. say that they believe that God will punish persons in hell for an age, ok, well, if he does, does it say that God will then bring them from hell into His presence?
See, I don't see any prove in scripture. I only see that God will punish and destroy the wicked. So, I am just reading scripture. I'm not against univ. I just don't see any scripture to back it up.
Miss_Shawn,
I think you are being confused and sidetracked by the alleged "hell" verses. Others have tried to explain to you that there is no hell, therefore there is no need for deliverance from it. There is only hades, sheol, gehenna, and the lake of fire.
Most Christian Universalists around here would start from scriptures like these:
1 Tim 2:4 [God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Is this God's will, or only His desire? It doesn't matter either way because all of God's desires will be accomplished.
Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
Isa 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
God will achieve and accomplish that which He desires, and He desires that all men be saved!
Shouldn't that be the end of it? Do we doubt that God will achieve His desire to save all men, even though He just told us He will accomplish that which He desires?
Now of course there are verses that speak of death, perishing, the mistranslated "hell" verses, the lake of fire, judgment, etc.
But do you think all of those other verses contradict this simple thought that God desires to save all men and He will achieve that desire? Is the bible full of contradictions? No of course not. The only contradictions that exist are those that have been introduced by men.
If you have a genuine desire to understand what us "universalists" believe, you need to start reading some of the many articles about how "hell" has been mistranslated. Don't worry, they all use scripture. There is even some debate on the exact meanings of things. We "uni's" don't have everything figured out, but we do know that God is not a tyrant or a weakling and will achive His desire to save all men.
Please please please do some research. Here is a good intro article on hell:
I think you are being confused and sidetracked by the alleged "hell" verses. Others have tried to explain to you that there is no hell, therefore there is no need for deliverance from it. There is only hades, sheol, gehenna, and the lake of fire.
There is a hell..just because you and others are blind to truth doesnt mean everyone is..
I think you are being confused and sidetracked by the alleged "hell" verses. Others have tried to explain to you that there is no hell, therefore there is no need for deliverance from it. There is only hades, sheol, gehenna, and the lake of fire.
Most Christian Universalists around here would start from scriptures like these:
1 Tim 2:4 [God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Is this God's will, or only His desire? It doesn't matter either way because all of God's desires will be accomplished.
Isa 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Isa 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
God will achieve and accomplish that which He desires, and He desires that all men be saved!
Shouldn't that be the end of it? Do we doubt that God will achieve His desire to save all men, even though He just told us He will accomplish that which He desires?
Now of course there are verses that speak of death, perishing, the mistranslated "hell" verses, the lake of fire, judgment, etc.
But do you think all of those other verses contradict this simple thought that God desires to save all men and He will achieve that desire? Is the bible full of contradictions? No of course not. The only contradictions that exist are those that have been introduced by men.
If you have a genuine desire to understand what us "universalists" believe, you need to start reading some of the many articles about how "hell" has been mistranslated. Don't worry, they all use scripture. There is even some debate on the exact meanings of things. We "uni's" don't have everything figured out, but we do know that God is not a tyrant or a weakling and will achive His desire to save all men.
Please please please do some research. Here is a good intro article on hell:
Its getting late so I'll be off to bed soon... perhaps we will discuss more later. Please at least read the first article, its not too long.
I read your prayer request thread and I hope your family is doing ok. Be well...
Quote:
1 Tim 2:4 [God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Yes, God wants all men to be saved, but Jesus even said that you refuse to come to me to have life.
It is God's will for us to be saved, but we have free will. Was it God's will that made Saul do what he did, or was it God's will that made the people from Sodom and Gomorrah, or was that there will?
I do study,I study scipture and I attend school, So , I research what I study. If you haven't notice, I literally take scripture for what it says, not for what I think that it says.
Yes, God wants all men to be saved, but Jesus even said that you refuse to come to me to have life.
So you believe God's desire will be thwarted by man?
Quote:
It is God's will for us to be saved, but we have free will. Was it God's will that made Saul do what he did, or was it God's will that made the people from Sodom and Gomorrah, or was that there will?
I do study, I study scripture and I attend school. So, I research what I study. If you haven't notice, I literally take scripture for what it says, not for what I think that it says.
Good, I'm glad you study scripture and have a good study ethic. But you haven't studied the universalist perspective, which you are trying to understand (I'm assuming you genuinely want to understand what we believe).
Read the articles I posted above. They may answer some of your questions. Goodnight...
So you believe God's desire will be thwarted by man?
Good, I'm glad you study scripture and have a good study ethic. But you haven't studied the universalist perspective, which you are trying to understand (I'm assuming you genuinely want to understand what we believe).
Read the articles I posted above. They may answer some of your questions. Goodnight...
I read the article, but the article doesn't really answer the questions that I was seeking in scripture. Goodnight
Hell, Hades, Sheol... all these words simply mean the GRAVE or TOMB.
Gehenna... is a place outside of Jerusalem where garbage is burned. It is used to symbolize the fire in the Lake of Fire.
Tartaroo... found only once in the Scriptures, in 2Peter 2:4. It is the place where the fallen angels are imprisoned until Judgment Day. I think it is another name for the Bottomless Pit.
Lake of Fire... where the wicked humans will be thrown to die a second and final death. Satan and the fallen angels will be thrown in to be tormented for ages. The Bible is silent what will happen next.
Last edited by wilvan; 07-11-2009 at 02:32 AM..
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