Hawaii vs. New Zealand (compare, ranking, downtown, climates)
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As far as a debate over whether there is prejudice against Haole's in Hawaii, there's not much to debate.
I was referring to the two opposite, extreme viewpoints I often see expressed on this forum: 1) "If you're a mainland haole, it doesn't matter how polite you are or how hard you try to adapt to the culture -- on a daily basis, you're going to experience stink eye, rudeness, and purposely substandard customer service from the locals." 2) "If you're a mainland haole, and you treat the locals with the same courtesy and respect that any decent person does no matter where they live, then you'll have zero problems fitting in and being respected. If you're experiencing rudeness, you must be doing something to deserve it."
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It exists as an underlying "us and them" kind of theme. If you are brown skinned you are a bit exempt from scrutiny. If you are not, it seems like a case by case basis.
That, to me, sounds accurate, because it's how human beings behave everywhere. It's prejudice in its most literal sense: prejudging people or situations based on what you've been taught and have experienced in your life. Here in Oregon, if you're white (as I am), you're part of the majority, and thus are one of "us," so you're more exempt from scrutiny. If you have darker skin, and especially if you have a funny accent (as my Hawaiian wife does), then you're one of "them," and you have to work harder to prove that you're an okay person. My wife and her sons look Mexican, and they've experienced a fair amount of prejudice here based on that. When some people who are treating them rudely find out they're Hawaiian, suddenly their demeanor changes, because Hawaiians are preferable to Mexicans here. Still, Hawaiians aren't quite as good as whites -- they're perceived as being a bit dim-witted, passive, and naive -- so it's in the natural order of things to take advantage of them, or at least ignore them. (Not everyone does this, of course, but it's common enough to be noticed.)
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It really ties back to what you said, communication and how you behave. Once you adapt to the more mellow behaivor patterns, you 'fit' in more.
Here are some examples:
Adapting behavior: Don't honk your horn. Keep quiet, mind your own, and watch (let) things play out.
"Them" behavior: Talking to everyone just to make conversation when it is uninvited. Not having patience when people prevent you from doing what you want to do right this very second. (i.e. Getting angry at someone who hogs the shower at the beach, or runs a red only to block traffic.)
I think on the mainland we have a larger expectation that we can do what we want right this very second, and we're more vocal about it. That doesn't fly here.
The last time I was in Honolulu, I experienced an incident of prejudice, and then the indirect reason for it, in the span of five minutes. My wife and I were checking out of our Waikiki high-rise hotel and heading down to the lobby in an elevator that had several other people in it. It was stopping at literally every floor, which I found amusing, so I turned to my wife and joked, "Apparently, we didn't choose the direct-flight elevator. This one has lots of layovers." A well-dressed, middle-aged, Asian-looking local lady turned to me and said, "If you find our elevators too slow, why don't you go back to the mainland where you came from?" She got off on the next floor, before I had a chance to respond. I was shocked that she took my joke to be a statement of irritation and criticism of Hawaii. Then we got off the elevator and went to the check-out desk, just in time to see the young desk clerk, who was swamped with people checking out, telling a mainland haole, "If you can wait just one moment, sir, I'll call a porter for your bags." He replied angrily, "No, I can't wait 'just one moment.' I want you to call a porter NOW!" I've seen that kind of behavior before, and I personally don't think it's acceptable anywhere. But it does reinforce the stereotype that mainland haoles are rude, because it's not a typical Asian/Hawaiian behavior.
But you do bring up a larger philosophical question. My philosophy is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," as long as it doesn't violate my ethics. It wouldn't occur to me to visit or move to another place and not try to adapt to the local culture. To me, an attitude of "I'm going to behave the way I've always done back home, and if you people don't like it, too bad" is rude, and I'm not surprised when it provokes rudeness in return. Let me make it clear that I'm talking about conscious refusal to adapt to the local culture, not faux pas made out of ignorance.
I was referring to the two opposite, extreme viewpoints I often see expressed on this forum: 1) "If you're a mainland haole, it doesn't matter how polite you are or how hard you try to adapt to the culture -- on a daily basis, you're going to experience stink eye, rudeness, and purposely substandard customer service from the locals." 2) "If you're a mainland haole, and you treat the locals with the same courtesy and respect that any decent person does no matter where they live, then you'll have zero problems fitting in and being respected. If you're experiencing rudeness, you must be doing something to deserve it."
Frames of mind I think. I agree with #2, except for the doing something to deserve it part. Sometimes people are just in a bad mood, and if I didn't deserve poor treatment I try to not take it personal. I suspect that the frame of mind in #1 ends up being a large portion of folks who only live here 2 years or less and then bag out.
The ironic part about the elevator lady is that she may be a transplant too. When I hear someone say that particular comment it is a bit offensive because it's just a cop out and rude thing to say, rather than deal with the situation like an adult. In this case, I thought what you said was funny. Would have laughed if I heard that on an elevator. I joke frequently about calling traffic control so they can turn all the lights red for me. The mere thought of calling them seems to work well enough. lol
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Originally Posted by HonuMan
But you do bring up a larger philosophical question. My philosophy is "When in Rome, do as the Romans do," as long as it doesn't violate my ethics. It wouldn't occur to me to visit or move to another place and not try to adapt to the local culture. To me, an attitude of "I'm going to behave the way I've always done back home, and if you people don't like it, too bad" is rude, and I'm not surprised when it provokes rudeness in return. Let me make it clear that I'm talking about conscious refusal to adapt to the local culture, not faux pas made out of ignorance.
Agree 110%. In my experience adapting to the culture here has been better for my health. Lower blood pressure because I am not near as impatient like I used to be. No road rage because there's no changing the way people drive here. Community and friendship is warm and inviting.
Am I a minority, yeah. Does it cause problems, not really. Do I have to "earn it" a bit more, only mildly now that I have a regular tan.
Honuman, I think the reason the lady on the elevator was offended is because sarcasm isn't really a thing here. Really, people everywhere just end up sounding like jerks when they make sarcastic "jokes" that aren't really funny, but it's even worse in Hawaii because it's not part of the culture here.
Anyway, Lane_change. I know that my paternalistic tone of voice irritate you. But I have seen plenty of kids dragged around by their parents, and they suffer from not having "roots". No close friends they went to school with. No dear lady neighbor who gave them candy on Xmas. No long time family doctor who took care of their tummy ache at 3 and stitched their elbow after a fall at 12. No favorite spot they went fishing to with their dad or friends. No place where they burried their dear cat or dog. No "family home" to go back to.
You mention how you were yanked away in the middle of your senior year. I consider this very selfish from parents, except for ultimate emergencies. Even if the dad or the mom is stationed at another place, the other parent should stay until the kid finish the school year. Kids first.
You mention how horrible Houston was. Still you decided to move there knowingly. It's not like you had to wait to be there to find out. Was it the only place you and your wife could get a job????
Did you think of what's best for your kids? Did you know it was a temporary move? Did you buy a home anyway? How many times did you move since you got married?
These are all pertinent questions you should ask yourself to evaluate your current plans and motivations to move. I do not expect any answers.
In my experience, the most grounded and well adjusted adults I know, have a strong social network of friends, old teachers or coaches, grand parents and uncles nearby. They know at least one person they went to 1st grade with. They go to their high school reunions. They might travel, even get a job somewhere else, but they have a place they call home to get back to. ROOTS. Grand parents are important, if alive. Even your crapy mother-in-law could be a source of comfort for children. Kids need to be loved and to feel important. And the more people who make them feel this way, the better. I hate my mother-in-law beyond what you can imagine, but my kids enjoy her gifts and her company too, somehow. They do not see her the way I do. Else I am pretty sure she will already have been eaten by some alligator.
Once more, I use my "counselor voice". I offer my unsolicited opinion objectively, and lucky you, you do not have to pay for it.
Try to get to a place were you feel you and your kids can live for the rest of your lives. Sure, it might not happen. But this is what you are aimimg for. You do not want your kids to come back to the U.S. to go to college exactly as foreigners. With no roots at all. Knowing nobody. When you get older, and want to be close to your grand-kids, you do not want to follow them all over the planet because they inherited your wandering bug.
There is a huge variety of cities, cultures and landscape in the U.S. and Canada. Montana is not next to the water, but worth visiting. Did you consider Vancouver? If you do not mind the N.Z. cold water, then look into Vancouver. The wilderness in Canada is magnificent! The most gorgeous mountain lakes on the planet. Best ski resorts. With the added benefit that if you crave a warm water beach, you can always drive to Baja CA. There is a place there where whales come to give birth in January, and it is the most mystical lagoon in the planet. Mind bogling. Whale Watching in Baja
You are still 5 hours away of any spot in the U.S. Visit the Washington Monuments when the kids are over 10. Yosemite is breath takingly grandiose. Best Universities in the world.
Your parents and mother in law can visit several times a year.
In the U.S. , residents in Chicago can always come and spend a week in Miami in the middle of Winter. Miami people can visit Alaska in the middle of summer.
Your kids enjoyed to spend time in CO, as a change from Houston. Doesn't mean they will want to live in a cold place year round. They enjoyed the NOVELTY of it. And there is almost unlimited novelty in North America.
DO NOT EXILE YOURSELF.
You are an American. If you do not feel at home in America, how could you feel at home in a tiny cold Island on the other side of the planet, where they drive on the wrong side of the road? Jobs pay less, but home cost more. Nowhere to go if you need a dramatic change of landscape, unless you spend $10K for a 40 hour (roundtrip) plane ride.
The fact is I know very well that you are not going to move to N.Z. I am absolutely sure of it. But I am just trying to expand your horizon and help you set your priorities right, which I think you are struggling to do.
Last edited by SurferCocoa; 12-29-2011 at 06:48 PM..
I would hope, for your wife and kids sake, that you use the money and the time instead for a great ski vacation somewhere in N. CA or Canada. Even CO is very close. If you live in Houston, mountains, snow, trees ladden with icecles, frozen lakes, snow-men, dog-sled rides.... will be a great hit! OR an Alaska cruise in the middle of summer. (I plan on doing this next year). A trip to N.Z. would be exhausting for young kids, and I am not sure they will appreciate sightseeing N.Z. ????
I somehow assumed, as a father myself, that your kids happiness was on top of your list. But, ultimately, after re-reading your posts, it sounds like you are looking for this very elusive feeling of being "home". This utopian place where all your desires and wants are fulfilled.
This simply comes from being raised in a military family, where you were never "home". Wherever you went, it was temporary, so you knew it was not "home". You have a wandering syndrome, and you should consider treating it, because it hampers your ability to enjoy whatever you have, wherever you are.
A lot of answers you got in this blog, from real smart people, kept saying: if you have x you want y, and once you have y you want z, and as soon as you get w you lose x..... In other words, the morality of the story is "Enjoy what you have". There is no harm trying to better your position, but also, you should feel happy and content if your family is in good health, you live in a nice house, have a decent job, and live in one of the most wonderful country in the world. I would seek a counselor advice, if I was you, to talk about your "wanting to feel home" needs.
I do not mean that moving to different places is a bad thing. It makes kids very adaptable and they learn many lessons. But at least, every time the parents move, the child think: this is my new home. In the military, it is very different. At the time you move in, you also know you will move out soon. And you don't just change house or city or school, but countries too. So you hold off any feeling of "being home". It feels like when you go to an hotel.
Try to give your kids this "home" feeling you lack in your childhood. And "home" in the U.S. is what will give them the greatest opportunities and CHOICES. N.Z. will severely limit their choices in the future, and most probably, they will return any way. Of course, they will come back! And be like strangers in their own country.
While your post was for the OP, personally I got a lot out of it!!
You're describing my life. My parents weren't military people, but we moved around 20 times before I was 18, maybe 12 of them to different towns and 6 of them were to different schools, but all in the same state of Michigan.
I left home many years ago, but continued at the same frenetic pace spanning countries, continents, cities, with little effort.
Anyways, you're making me think I need to just focus on that one final post-Japan move, and choose the most compatible place for that.
I also agree that New Zealand is a very remote long shot...hence why my conversation about moving is taking place in the Hawaii section and not so much in the New Zealand section, just some random posting here and there, but Hawaii is pretty much where I think we will be focusing on if we do decide to live the mainland.
As far as moving to Houston, we came here shortly after college, job opportunity presented itself and we did not know Houston from a hole in the wall. Our children have only known Houston, been here since the oldest was 3 months old. All we knew after going to college in the midwest was that we hate snow. Going from San Diego to Iowa State University and then to the University of Missouri were not exactly our favorite years dealing with snow and cold winters. As far as my parents being selfish, they are both USMC retired officers, so there was no parent available to stay behind. Part of active duty military that you learn is that the needs of the military come first. Maybe it would have been less selfish for my parents to leave me in San Diego with a family friend to finish high school and just send them a postcard for the holidays, who knows?
As for the other posters, I think that it is awesome that there are drag strips on the islands, I really had not started looking, but I agree that it would be a great way to socially connect with people with similar interests. I can mechanic myself, so that would not be an issue for me. As far as the Haole problems, again, we are a live and let live family...I had to know how to integrate myself quickly, so we'll see how the children do with the transition, but overall I think they will do okay. We are pretty much home bodies, don't drink, don't smoke, don't party and leave the kids with baby sitters, etc...we didn't have that behavior before children either. We tend to have a select group of good friends and then just know other people that we are social with, but not people that we would necessarily call in case of an emergency. I don't need hundred's of friends to feel complete...a good core that you hang out with and talk to regularly is good enough for me. Everyone else is basically just a "facebook friend", but again, we've never lived in a small community where people may have a larger sense of community, so who knows if that would fit for us or not. My wife was looking at some professor positions at U of Hawaii which may be a great career path for her if she decides to leave healthcare since that is her ideal job. A professor with summer's off in Hawaii with the children while she finishes her PhD, sounds ideal to her. But that would definitely place on Oahu....so we'll see.
What I am puzzled about is you ready to spend $10K to visit a small island with 4 million habitants, with a 5yo and 2yo in tow, at the end of the world, just to see if it is better than Houston.
Yeah, it is kind of crazy. Kids won't care if the place is 5 miles from your home or 5000 miles from home...they'll have the same emotional range of experiences and forget it immediately afterwards
However, that's been my general pattern, travel long distances to see if it's better than the place I'm currently at. So, I can definitely relate to the OP very well!
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Originally Posted by lane_change
....and I hear that New Zealand is also a very tranquil place to live and not have to be helicopter parents with your children living under a magnifying glass behind a safety net. I liked that about growing up in Japan....it was so safe that you had the freedom to just go and have fun. There was almost a 0% chance of getting kidnapped, assaulted, robbed, raped, etc...
I can relate to that as well. Living in Japan myself, it's quite a shock when I go back to the U.S., and see the many things you can't do while there.
We have a nearly 3-year-old, and I'm constantly telling the wife, 'you can't do that with the kid if we were back in the U.S.'.
I'm hoping that Hawaii will be that happy-medium between Japan & mainland U.S. It seems like it will be, for me. We have a hapa kid, so I'd imagine everything would be more clear-cut easy, without the wondering about the kids being haole and all.
My parents weren't military people, but we moved around 20 times before I was 18...
WOW! Same here! I have never ran across anyone who went through what I did. From kindergarten to graduating 12th grade, I went to 18 different schools. I absolutely HATED it! But for some reason, my dad loved to move and still does.
Anyway, Lane_change. I know that my paternalistic tone of voice irritate you. But I have seen plenty of kids dragged around by their parents, and they suffer from not having "roots". No close friends they went to school with. No dear lady neighbor who gave them candy on Xmas. No long time family doctor who took care of their tummy ache at 3 and stitched their elbow after a fall at 12. No favorite spot they went fishing to with their dad or friends. No place where they burried their dear cat or dog. No "family home" to go back to.
You mention how you were yanked away in the middle of your senior year. I consider this very selfish from parents, except for ultimate emergencies. Even if the dad or the mom is stationed at another place, the other parent should stay until the kid finish the school year. Kids first.
You just 100% described my life again. Even the point of the parents moving my Senior Year. I hated that!
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Originally Posted by SurferCocoa
Try to get to a place were you feel you and your kids can live for the rest of your lives. Sure, it might not happen. But this is what you are aimimg for. You do not want your kids to come back to the U.S. to go to college exactly as foreigners. With no roots at all. Knowing nobody. When you get older, and want to be close to your grand-kids, you do not want to follow them all over the planet because they inherited your wandering bug.
Described me again. I got a wandering bug and basically all over the planet.
Trying to get to THE place to spend the rest of your lives...is good advice.
I could almost start a new post on this one....as my interests would be getting away from the NZ vs HI thread. But, you're hitting on a lot of things that actually describe me
Drive Vancouver, BC, to Baja? ha ha ha? I was kind of taking you seriously when you said NZ would be a long flight for kids, but somehow, stuck in a car is better? When I lived south of San Francisco, I thought driving 40 miles to San Jose was a chore, and that was to see friends. When I thought about visiting Mexico City from the Bay Area would be a nice getaway, I realized it was almost as far as Hawaii, and more expensive to fly there. Whatever the opposite of island fever is, I must have it by now.
Plus, anybody can visit Alaska, not just people in Miami. If you mean drive there, that's worse than BC to BCS (Baja California Sur). There are daily HNL-ANC flights I hope to take someday.
While you say you speak for the kids, you are quite anti-expatriation in a weird xenophobic way. "You are an American. If you do not feel at home in America, how could you feel at home in a tiny cold Island on the other side of the planet." Maybe because many people outside the US haven't forgotten how to treat their fellow humans with respect and dignity, not just as a consumer or customer. "Nowhere to go if you need a dramatic change of landscape, unless you spend $10K for a 40 hour (roundtrip) plane ride." What? I thought you were talking about NZ, where the dramatic landscape is precisely just a short drive away (unlike FL, I might add)--which was half the appeal of moving there.
I do believe you are right, not so good to move kids around all the time, especially during the critical teen years. Yet the OP said precisely that he is looking for a place to create that stable home, not move around all the time as his parents did.
Granted that for any move such as this, there is a non-negligeable chance it doesn't work out, and 2 years later they move again. But OP is aware of that and seems to be doing everything to minimize that risk, including choosing the right destination. I think you are too focused on this expatriation thing (you call it exile, which is technically different). People moving across town, and from state to state have many of the same issues as people going overseas.
As for the wander bug, it does seem to be an inheritable character trait. The real question is, whether it is detrimental to child development, or whether it has some other benefits. It's a tough question, because it seems to help some people in some ways and hinder them in others. It also seems to affect different children differently, probably mostly based on what stage of development they are going through when they move.
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