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From your perspective Grendel. You value places like Portland and Seattle, and Austin type vibey places, where as I do not. It may be better suited for you but, Richmond does not beat any thing to me. Yes it is the capital and so forth but that doesn't mean anything to me. If you fancy yourself along the lines of a hipster then Richmond is the spot for you...and the grass is always greener.
And no one is saying you have to value those places, but your locally elected officials and their appointed executives do. The reason being that those places are not just attractive to "hipsters," but Millennials of all types, including entrepreneurs and start-ups, technology and information sectors, medical research, and Fortune 500 companies. The cities you listed are some of the fastest growing cities in the country, which means their tax bases are also growing quickly. That means more revenue generated and investment from outside sources to spend on great programs that can embrace whatever culture is found there and champion it. Norfolk barely has money to keep schools funded and parks maintained.
Either way, I already listed things Norfolk(alone) has that Richmond does not, like she asked. And many of these things Norfolk had before Richmond especially Arts/theatre/Museums/LRT... so Norfolk may be playing catch up to YOU for what it is YOU want and like...but I did not move from the suburbs to Norfolk...I came from downtown.
Are you really comparing Norfolk's art scene with Richmond's? C'mon, man. You can't be serious. VCU's art school is one of the top ranked art schools in the country, and the city has street art that rivals any major city.
But again, it's not about what I want. It's about what the City of Norfolk is effectively trying to create here. Yes, Norfolk has the first LRT in the state, but what has it done for the city? Who is moving here for LRT? What businesses have relocated to be near stops? What developer is investing in transit-oriented development right now in Norfolk? I don't know of any, and I know the city's economists are scrambling because of it. Norfolk has only lost money on LRT, and it will lose even more over the next decade to retrofit it and adapt to rising sea levels. That's not to say that LRT isn't important. Better transit definitely is. And in the long-term, LRT might catalyze some growth for Norfolk but that remains to be seen.
Who said anything about coming from the suburbs to Norfolk? You lost me there, man.
As far as "branding" the city...the "people" brand the city...certain folks just don't like the branding. If you notice the two videos Ive posted, I wonder if you folks who work for the city, know of the people in those vids and other street level stuff going on out here. Richmond, is actually playing catch up because it was written off for crime and had a population less than Newport News (197,000) not too long ago so I don't see how you missed that. Stifled by the feds or sabotaged by the state capital or not, Norfolk can coast until it figures out its next few moves, it is not withering away and has all the things I mentioned.
I agree with you. No one believes Norfolk is withering. Norfolk's economy is really stable, but only because of the federal spending here.
Branding does come from the people. And polls conducted by city staff to help us get a pulse and a feel of how the people see their own city say that Norfolk residents view this a military, coastal, laid-back city. Take it or leave it, but that's what the results were. I can't say no one who works for the City know who the people in that music video are, but I sure didn't. That being said, I came to the City with years of community development experience in the nonprofit sector. I've been the guy across the table from local officials telling them they don't know what they're talking about and they are disconnected from what's actually happening at street-level. Regardless, I'm not really sure what a music video proves. No one denies there are musicians and artists here. But just having artists and musicians within city limits doesn't mean much. That's like someone who says they want to get noticed because they're a great person on the inside. It's wonderful to be great on the inside, but why should anyone care? The world will only ask, "What have you done to prove your worth?" Know what I mean? What have the artists in that video done for Norfolk?
Also, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Norfolk lives in DC's shadow when it is not on 95 and is in a cul de sac. To WHO, does Norfolk live in DCs shadow? We don't even move like that. That's odd you would say that because Richmond is the place that used to be under DCs influence... we're known for doing our own thing. I don't know what they do down at City Hall, Im talking about people on the street. Aside from the closest sports team DC has no influence ( Im not talking about capitol hill and the pentagon either).
That's understandable if you don't work there. But I do. Talking about people on the street is great, but people on the street aren't deciding Norfolk's future. And while you may not be talking about Capitol Hill and the Pentagon, your locally elected officials and decision-makers are.
Like I said a few posts ago, Norfolk is a decent place. I can see why you like it. And I understand why you feel like the local government is disconnected from what Norfolk is offering at street-level, but you have to admit that you don't understand what happens on the 10th and 11th floors of City Hall and beyond. Street-level stuff is wonderful, and Norfolk can be underrated as far as that goes. But the government needs revenue to make this place better, and street-level culture in Norfolk has not attracted enough attention to expand Norfolk's tax base, catalyze investment from major employers and private firms, or retain an ethic of entrepreneurship found in places like Richmond or New Orleans. Norfolk just doesn't compete there, my friend. That's why, for now, Norfolk is latching itself to whatever DC will give us.
I brought Baltimore up as a point to draw a similarity with Richmond, and didn't say anything else...
-when a question was posed about what would make someone enjoy Richmond over Baltimore, I gave my opinions, not anybody else's. I didn't ask the question or start that thread to the convo...
-I never said anything about Norfolk period. Other people came in and offered their opinion that Norfolk was a better city within the state. I came and offered my counterpoint, but didn't bring up Norfolk. The entire first 9 pages of this thread that I spoke on Richmond, I didn't "shade" Norfolk once to talk up Richmond...
So let me get this right, other people, even people with no ties whatsoever to the Commonwealth, can give their opinions on Norfolk/Richmond, when Norfolk wasn't even a topic of discussion in this thread, but I cant give my view? A poster can ask about whether they think they'll like Richmond over Baltimore, and I'm not allowed to answer?
You guys are funny, man, so I'll chill a little. I love Richmond, there aint no shame in my game, but I didn't realize that I was considered to bash/shade other people's cities, ESPECIALLY WHEN OTHER PEOPLE EXPAND THE OP BY ADDING OTHER CITIES TO THE CONVO. I've been on this site going on four years without those accusations, so its cool. I respect every single person's opinion, and if you disagree with me, you just do! Part of life...
@757, I hear you, but you're in the minority of people who view Norfolk as some urban oasis, as a more important city than Richmond. Lol come on now, no one in Richmond talks about Norfolk and Richmond doesn't compete with Norfolk--the same way DC doesn't compete with us. It's well-documented the little man complex Norfolk has towards Rich, across different arenas of lifestyle. Don't do that!
For the record, I like Norfolk. I just don't believe its a better city than Richmond, and many people agree with me, they just aren't in this thread lol. You're entitled to yours too, but Richmond and Norfolk aren't in comparable classes. And clearly, I don't spend much time obsessing over the matter; less than four years on this site and I just hit 300 posts, so I am out here actually living life. Just respect the difference of opinion! I'll chill and let yall have it though, since all your Norfolk boosters came in and hijacked the thread (in which murksiderock NEVER mentioned Norfolk)...
I brought Baltimore up as a point to draw a similarity with Richmond, and didn't say anything else...
-when a question was posed about what would make someone enjoy Richmond over Baltimore, I gave my opinions, not anybody else's. I didn't ask the question or start that thread to the convo...
-I never said anything about Norfolk period. Other people came in and offered their opinion that Norfolk was a better city within the state. I came and offered my counterpoint, but didn't bring up Norfolk. The entire first 9 pages of this thread that I spoke on Richmond, I didn't "shade" Norfolk once to talk up Richmond...
So let me get this right, other people, even people with no ties whatsoever to the Commonwealth, can give their opinions on Norfolk/Richmond, when Norfolk wasn't even a topic of discussion in this thread, but I cant give my view? A poster can ask about whether they think they'll like Richmond over Baltimore, and I'm not allowed to answer?
You guys are funny, man, so I'll chill a little. I love Richmond, there aint no shame in my game, but I didn't realize that I was considered to bash/shade other people's cities, ESPECIALLY WHEN OTHER PEOPLE EXPAND THE OP BY ADDING OTHER CITIES TO THE CONVO. I've been on this site going on four years without those accusations, so its cool. I respect every single person's opinion, and if you disagree with me, you just do! Part of life...
@757, I hear you, but you're in the minority of people who view Norfolk as some urban oasis, as a more important city than Richmond. Lol come on now, no one in Richmond talks about Norfolk and Richmond doesn't compete with Norfolk--the same way DC doesn't compete with us. It's well-documented the little man complex Norfolk has towards Rich, across different arenas of lifestyle. Don't do that!
For the record, I like Norfolk. I just don't believe its a better city than Richmond, and many people agree with me, they just aren't in this thread lol. You're entitled to yours too, but Richmond and Norfolk aren't in comparable classes. And clearly, I don't spend much time obsessing over the matter; less than four years on this site and I just hit 300 posts, so I am out here actually living life. Just respect the difference of opinion! I'll chill and let yall have it though, since all your Norfolk boosters came in and hijacked the thread (in which murksiderock NEVER mentioned Norfolk)...
For all of this you say. I was gonna dismiss it and say "cool". But you are really reaching to think that Norfolk has some little man complex over Richmond, when it has to deal with the snobs and Nimbys from VA Beach. I don't know where you get this from but we really don't view Richmond as some big city or have any complex. Im talking about the people...not some politicians...if anything, people dislike what they think is corruption and mismanagement coming out of Richmond. Its bad when officials from northern Virginia try to build an alliance with HR officials to try and combat Richmond(the capital). We do not care about Richmond, there is no real reason to go there other than a birth certificate or appeal. I just try to speak well of the place cause others don't and because its in VA. But Im gonna let you RVA cats handle all that from now on. And I never said Norfolk was some magical urban oasis, it is urban enough for many, and not for some...I really don't care about all the measurements city data geeks come up with.
You keep saying "you don't think this" and "I think that"... "and people disagree"... all that's cool, so we disagree on which city is what. But you asked about something Norfolk HAD that Richmond didn't and I told you. All this other stuff youre saying is kinda weird, to me. Norfolk boosters never hijacked the thread. And I wasn't here to boost Norfolk, I desire to make posts as short as possible until I have to respond to some nonsense. I would have preferred not to have posted in here at all.
And no one is saying you have to value those places, but your locally elected officials and their appointed executives do. The reason being that those places are not just attractive to "hipsters," but Millennials of all types, including entrepreneurs and start-ups, technology and information sectors, medical research, and Fortune 500 companies. The cities you listed are some of the fastest growing cities in the country, which means their tax bases are also growing quickly. That means more revenue generated and investment from outside sources to spend on great programs that can embrace whatever culture is found there and champion it. Norfolk barely has money to keep schools funded and parks maintained.
Either way, I already listed things Norfolk(alone) has that Richmond does not, like she asked. And many of these things Norfolk had before Richmond especially Arts/theatre/Museums/LRT... so Norfolk may be playing catch up to YOU for what it is YOU want and like...but I did not move from the suburbs to Norfolk...I came from downtown.
Are you really comparing Norfolk's art scene with Richmond's? C'mon, man. You can't be serious. VCU's art school is one of the top ranked art schools in the country, and the city has street art that rivals any major city.
But again, it's not about what I want. It's about what the City of Norfolk is effectively trying to create here. Yes, Norfolk has the first LRT in the state, but what has it done for the city? Who is moving here for LRT? What businesses have relocated to be near stops? What developer is investing in transit-oriented development right now in Norfolk? I don't know of any, and I know the city's economists are scrambling because of it. Norfolk has only lost money on LRT, and it will lose even more over the next decade to retrofit it and adapt to rising sea levels. That's not to say that LRT isn't important. Better transit definitely is. And in the long-term, LRT might catalyze some growth for Norfolk but that remains to be seen.
Who said anything about coming from the suburbs to Norfolk? You lost me there, man.
As far as "branding" the city...the "people" brand the city...certain folks just don't like the branding. If you notice the two videos Ive posted, I wonder if you folks who work for the city, know of the people in those vids and other street level stuff going on out here. Richmond, is actually playing catch up because it was written off for crime and had a population less than Newport News (197,000) not too long ago so I don't see how you missed that. Stifled by the feds or sabotaged by the state capital or not, Norfolk can coast until it figures out its next few moves, it is not withering away and has all the things I mentioned.
I agree with you. No one believes Norfolk is withering. Norfolk's economy is really stable, but only because of the federal spending here.
Branding does come from the people. And polls conducted by city staff to help us get a pulse and a feel of how the people see their own city say that Norfolk residents view this a military, coastal, laid-back city. Take it or leave it, but that's what the results were. I can't say no one who works for the City know who the people in that music video are, but I sure didn't. That being said, I came to the City with years of community development experience in the nonprofit sector. I've been the guy across the table from local officials telling them they don't know what they're talking about and they are disconnected from what's actually happening at street-level. Regardless, I'm not really sure what a music video proves. No one denies there are musicians and artists here. But just having artists and musicians within city limits doesn't mean much. That's like someone who says they want to get noticed because they're a great person on the inside. It's wonderful to be great on the inside, but why should anyone care? The world will only ask, "What have you done to prove your worth?" Know what I mean? What have the artists in that video done for Norfolk?
Also, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Norfolk lives in DC's shadow when it is not on 95 and is in a cul de sac. To WHO, does Norfolk live in DCs shadow? We don't even move like that. That's odd you would say that because Richmond is the place that used to be under DCs influence... we're known for doing our own thing. I don't know what they do down at City Hall, Im talking about people on the street. Aside from the closest sports team DC has no influence ( Im not talking about capitol hill and the pentagon either).
That's understandable if you don't work there. But I do. Talking about people on the street is great, but people on the street aren't deciding Norfolk's future. And while you may not be talking about Capitol Hill and the Pentagon, your locally elected officials and decision-makers are.
Like I said a few posts ago, Norfolk is a decent place. I can see why you like it. And I understand why you feel like the local government is disconnected from what Norfolk is offering at street-level, but you have to admit that you don't understand what happens on the 10th and 11th floors of City Hall and beyond. Street-level stuff is wonderful, and Norfolk can be underrated as far as that goes. But the government needs revenue to make this place better, and street-level culture in Norfolk has not attracted enough attention to expand Norfolk's tax base, catalyze investment from major employers and private firms, or retain an ethic of entrepreneurship found in places like Richmond or New Orleans. Norfolk just doesn't compete there, my friend. That's why, for now, Norfolk is latching itself to whatever DC will give us.
Listen. You like those cities, many of which are isolated. You like tech and this and that. I do not care about that or those cities or those types of people...and the city officials will look at anything that is to make money...those are the cities whose time it is now for that. Norfolk is not going to attract "nerds" like that, and Im fine with it. Norfolk is not playing the roll of Seattle, Austin, or Portland, and Im fine with that. You like those type of places...I don't...no need to try to talk a bunch of junk about Norfolk because of it. My family is filled with entrepreneurs as well...their start ups are not "tech" oriented yet they own their own successful businesses, Blackfolks. There is nothing wrong with having a trade either...everyone doesn't want to sit in some office.
If you notice the context of what was written...I don't have to compare the Arts District scene to VCUs Art School. The fact is that that is a school and the Arts District is filled with "start-ups" as you say, that appear to be food and music oriented. This area is known in "urban" circles for introducing unique sounds from Timbaland, The Neptunes, Bink, Nottz and so on...a lot of people are attracted here thinking they are gonna be apart of some scene...the people in the vid are some of the latest to come through that scene... that vid was shot in one of those start ups in the Arts District I mentioned as being something Norfolk had: New Performing Artists with a new sound. We do unique urban genre colliding music here, VCU's "school" is an art school...those artists in the vid performed there as well as other artist from here...you and/or city officials may not like that brand of music/art, but hey...its called creating a buzz. Look how LONG it took Pharrell to get the key to his city. Late.
Once again, I don't care what Light Rail has or has yet to do for Norfolk, I said that is something that is in Norfolk that is not in Richmond, as that was the question asked. Im not gonna go back and forth about sea level rise and TOD and all that because it is irrelevant. But since you worked with ODU/NOAA and the city (correct?) then I would imagine that you know that there are several projects pertaining to sea level rise that the federal government is going to step in on. No need to provide an answer.
Right, and as long as Norfolks economy is stable and not withering, I do not care WHY it is so. Richmond is stable because of state jobs and federal workers as well as the DC area. Richmonds downtown is gentrifying because of VCU. That is not something I hold against ANY of them. Can Norfolk expand and diversify? Sure...I would imagine that one of the geniuses downtown would realize that continued expansion of Sentara Leigh and that whole area around there could be expanded to include an expanded EVMS campus and research area focused on biomedical and whatever other type of research and development that goes along with it? Remove all those little call center offices, make a full fledge campus with residences tying in development all the way to that Tide stop down there. Its not my job to give them ideas and this post is becoming more along the lines of something that should be in the HR forum.
This is the problem with board room folks and artsy types and trendsetters. City officials need to worry less about trynna be "hip" and take care of business. Seattles/Atlantas officials decided to take care of business Seattle; tech.boeing etc./Atlanta: Airport, Hub etc. The people branded those places and helped them "blow up." Nirvana/Seattle and Outkast/ Dirty South movement. As trivial as that may seem...those types are who really set the beacons for an attraction to a place. Unless your area is killing it in the cutting edge job market or known for some great movie/music or has pro sports, youre not generally on the national radar. Richmond is STILL trying to market itself as something other than the former capital of the confederacy...you may be enamored with their progress, I may be happy for them...many still only see "confederacy." Look at Memphis and Detroit (no disrespect to these cities)...everyone has heard of them Stax/Elvis and Motown plus Ford...plenty of recognition..."the people" did their job...the city officials have yet to do theirs.
Last edited by 757Cities Southsider; 04-14-2015 at 06:53 PM..
@757, I'm all for a good discussion, but you keep making inferences about what I'm writing that just simply aren't true so I'm gonna go ahead and move on. If you want to start a thread over in the Hampton Roads forum on this topic, I'd be more than happy to participate. But don't act like I'm discrediting Norfolk because I'm not. I've said numerous times, in this thread and others, that Norfolk has plenty to offer. I just simply disagree that it's got more to offer than Richmond.
@757, I'm all for a good discussion, but you keep making inferences about what I'm writing that just simply aren't true so I'm gonna go ahead and move on. If you want to start a thread over in the Hampton Roads forum on this topic, I'd be more than happy to participate. But don't act like I'm discrediting Norfolk because I'm not. I've said numerous times, in this thread and others, that Norfolk has plenty to offer. I just simply disagree that it's got more to offer than Richmond.
I don't know what inferences you are referring to, but you started off discrediting the place. And you have already stated before (elsewhere) that you don't like the look of the place and you were frustrated and ready to move to Seattle or wherever that was (unless its someone else Im thinking about). Nothing wrong with liking Seattle or Richmond. And once again whatever it offers for YOU is fine, but that was never what I was responding to. I was responding to what does Norfolk have that Richmond doesn't? And to perceived continued disrespect. I didn't come to boost Norfolk, just represent it.
[quote=757Cities Southsider;39224072]I don't know what inferences you are referring to, but you started off discrediting the place. And you have already stated before (elsewhere) that you don't like the look of the place and you were frustrated and ready to move to Seattle or wherever that was (unless its someone else Im thinking about). Nothing wrong with liking Seattle or Richmond. And once again whatever it offers for YOU is fine, but that was never what I was responding to. I was responding to what does Norfolk have that Richmond doesn't? And to perceived continued disrespect. I didn't come to boost Norfolk, just represent it.[/QUOTE
I brought Baltimore up as a point to draw a similarity with Richmond, and didn't say anything else...???
I love Richmond, there aint no shame in my game A blind man could see that, but I didn't realize that I was considered to bash/shade other people's cities Really seriously!, ESPECIALLY WHEN OTHER PEOPLE EXPAND THE OP BY ADDING OTHER CITIES TO THE CONVO Oh ok Mr. Charlette/Philadelphia/Portland/Seatlle. I've been on this site going on four years without those accusations, so its cool. I respect every single person's opinion Do you really lol?)...
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Last edited by Northernest Southernest C; 04-15-2015 at 06:58 AM..
I don't know what inferences you are referring to, but you started off discrediting the place. And you have already stated before (elsewhere) that you don't like the look of the place and you were frustrated and ready to move to Seattle or wherever that was (unless its someone else Im thinking about). Nothing wrong with liking Seattle or Richmond. And once again whatever it offers for YOU is fine, but that was never what I was responding to. I was responding to what does Norfolk have that Richmond doesn't? And to perceived continued disrespect. I didn't come to boost Norfolk, just represent it.
You keep inferring that I'm comparing Norfolk to places like Seattle, and that I want Norfolk to be just like Seattle. YOU are the one who brought up Seattle, Portland, Austin, and whatever other city you were discussing. Not me. I never once said, or have said, that I want Norfolk to be just like those places, but you keep telling me that I do. You also said "I like tech and this and that." I couldn't care less about the tech industry, but if we're talking about how to diversify Norfolk's economy then that industry is important. Those are the inferences I'm talking about.
And thanks for bringing up old posts I've made on completely different threads, but if you actually go back and read them the reason I'm moving to the Northwest is because I want to be near my family and friends in that part of the country and for better job opportunities. Those are the sources of my frustration with Norfolk, not because I "don't like the look the place." Again, you're inferring things and stating them as fact.
No I didn't start off discrediting Norfolk. I've said numerous times in this thread that Norfolk is a decent place and I can understand why you're happy here. But I did speak honestly about Norfolk. You're talking about "disrespect" like I'm talking about your mother or something. It's Norfolk. It's about as average as it gets, man. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but you and I live in an average city.
I know what you were responding to. I've been following along. What you don't seem to get is that, in spite of Norfolk having those things you listed (which are all great things, no discredit here), Norfolk is still a pretty average place. Richmond has a zoo too. Richmond has arts festivals. Richmond has opera. Richmond has music venues (The National is owned by the same people who own the NorVA). Richmond has minor league baseball. Richmond has upscale shopping. Richmond has an active downtown with few vacancies (and more Fortune 500 companies than Norfolk). Richmond has a large arts district that has influenced the entire city. Richmond has hip hop artists. So yeah, it's cool that Norfolk has its own version of these things but it doesn't make Norfolk special. Again, that's not to discredit Norfolk's achievements. That just an honest look at it.
I think as others have said that people mostly associate New Orleans with crime and think oh because Richmond has less crime its a better place to live. Its subjective really. But New Orleans has a larger economy and is a larger city. There is a lot of revamping going on in New Orleans and its growing. I would say New Orleans is the better place to be right now. Those who have a view of New Orleans shaped by the media of course will vote Richmond. Half of the voters probably haven't even commented here. Just seen the New Orleans listed and thought 'crime' and voted Richmond.
Hmm...I disagree. I think of Richmond as equally crime-filled.
I usually think of New Orleans have something MORE than just crime though. Whereas Richmond seems like by reputation alone, it just only has the 'crime' stats without much offsetting that.
That being said, for those very few who know Richmond, it has some pretty cool urban areas though! But, so does New Orleans.
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