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Old 06-06-2010, 01:23 PM
 
26,112 posts, read 48,696,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
.... So, I think the best plan is what is do-able now. What can be supported by the taxpayers (!)? Get that done now. Get a functional system up and running. Then worry about adding to the initial plan.
...
IMO, the piece that is doable now is Fountain/Fort Carson to downtown Denver. Stops in Fountain/Carson, downtown COLO SPGS (Giuseppe's restaurant area), USAFA (a stop near Falcon Stadium), Monument, Larkspur, Castle Rock and one or two in the Denver metro area ending at Union Station.

This hits all the high points and get the spots that draw big crowds (Falcon Stadium, Invesco Field, Pepsi Center, LoDo, Coors Field).

It also hits the larger employment centers: Fort Carson; downtown COLO SPGS; USAFA / Voyager Pkwy; and Denver.

Local bus transit would move people to/from rail stops.

By following the rail line on Google Maps, I see it goes up near Highland Ranch, into Littleton and parallels the existing RTD Green/Orange Light Rail line all way into downtown Denver. But it misses the big employment area of Denver Tech Center unless something is done.

Once in Denver, there is good bus service to Boulder and IIRC someday a Light Rail line is due there. But to go from COLO SPGS to downtown Denver and then back down a Light Rail line to DTC is a non-starter, they need a way to hit that major work area with rail from the south.
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Old 06-06-2010, 01:33 PM
 
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IMO, Ft Collins to Pueblo is pretty close to the German model of several cities not too far apart. Too close for air travel but right for rail. The issue at DIA is the same as the DC area with Dulles (IAD), there's NO rail option to get to/from the airport; it's a $65 taxi fare from either airport to the downtown. Both downtowns have a subway or light rail, just no rail line to the larger airports of DIA or IAD.

There's an unending line of private cars ferrying people to/from DIA and most of those cars could easily be dealt away with if there were a light rail line from DIA to Denver Union Station.

We finally got the DC Metro into National Airport and what a joy that is for getting to/from an airport drowning in cars and clogged highways. We could take the subway from our office in the Pentagon or Crystal City, exit the train at the airport, get on a plane, with NO need for an auto/taxi -- how very civilized.

We need to do that here, starting with the Denver-ColoSpgs city pair, connecting it all with the light rail and work/play centers.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Difficult to compare DC with Denver. Two very different cultures. The DC area is loaded with people who grew up in Philadelphia and New York with a strong public transportation culture. Out West the mindset is that public transportation is more for other people, particularly those who can't afford cars or can't get a driver's license (like maybe your illegal housekeeper) or to shuttle the kids from one divorced parent to the other. Unless you have something that the great middle and upper middle class will want to use, you're just not going to generate sufficient public support for it.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:18 PM
 
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Denver is also a city of transplants, many from back east and/or places with a transit history. When I drive I-25 in evening rush hour, the light rail line to Lone Tree is packed with riders and standees. I think they've got the culture to use public transit.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:19 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,357,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVA1990 View Post
Unless you have something that the great middle and upper middle class will want to use, you're just not going to generate sufficient public support for it.
$8/gal. gas will make them need to use it. They may not want to, but they will have to--or stay home.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:23 PM
 
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Just trying to get to a Bronco's game is an awful experience; I-25 near Invesco is a zoo, and parking is $40 a car or higher. If I could hop a train over near the USAF Academy and take it to Invesco you can put me down for season tickets. If we open rail transit in the corridor, it will IMPROVE business prospects all over the region, not detract. Expensive gas will just increase the ridership that much more, but we gotta get it in place asap for when that happens, and it's only one black swan away.... like a revolution in Saudi Arabia.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:46 PM
 
8,317 posts, read 29,357,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Just trying to get to a Bronco's game is an awful experience; I-25 near Invesco is a zoo, and parking is $40 a car or higher. If I could hop a train over near the USAF Academy and take it to Invesco you can put me down for season tickets. If we open rail transit in the corridor, it will IMPROVE business prospects all over the region, not detract. Expensive gas will just increase the ridership that much more, but we gotta get it in place asap for when that happens, and it's only one black swan away.... like a revolution in Saudi Arabia.
You might be interested to know, Mike, that the D&RGW ran passenger specials from Denver to the Air Force Academy when AFA played home football games. From what I was told by my parents (who rode them a couple of times), they were one wild time.

The Santa Fe also ran special passenger trains from Denver to Raton--the disembarkation point for Boy Scouts going to summer camp at the Philmont Ranch. I think they ran Boy Scout trains to Philmont out of Kansas City, as well.

I've ridden on enough passenger trains, special trains and regular passenger trains both, to know how much fun they can be. It's an experience nearly totally lost on the last 2 or 3 generations. Beats the hell out of being stuffed like cattle on an airplane.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,129 posts, read 31,113,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
$8/gal. gas will make them need to use it. They may not want to, but they will have to--or stay home.
Amtrak ridership did increase noticeably when gas went to $4/gallon so I would agree high gas prices would probably get folks to switch at least in the short run. However over the long term, you would probably see higher gas prices offset by a drop in real estate values, an increase in the purchase of more fuel efficient cars, and an increase in telecommuting and wages.
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Old 06-06-2010, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
14,129 posts, read 31,113,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east View Post
Denver is also a city of transplants, many from back east and/or places with a transit history
Would be interesting to see some data on that. Seems from watching the forum here that a lot of folks moving there are coming from CA and TX, not known for their love of public transportation.
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Old 06-06-2010, 09:09 PM
 
9,846 posts, read 22,575,838 times
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Originally Posted by jazzlover View Post
I agree that too grandiose a plan (like High-Speed rail projects) often get nowhere because they are simply too expensive and too grandiose. Sometimes what is needed is a more modest "proof-of-concept." Here is one that actually could be done and might have a chance for success: A conventional passenger train running from El Paso, TX to, say, Shelby, Montana. This has always been a missing link in the Amtrak network--a north-south train in the Rocky Mountain region connecting with all four major east-west Amtrak routes in the West--the Sunset Limited, Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, and Empire Builder--in addition to serving every major city east of the Continental Divide in the Rocky Mountain region.

What would it take to do it? Simply upgrading existing trackage to 70-90 mph passenger standards. The big bottleneck would be between Denver and Pueblo, but that could be alleviated by re-laying the second main track that was removed years ago (shortsightedly, mainly because of bitching and moaning about it in Colorado Springs) between Palmer Lake and Crews (just south of Colorado Springs), and laying a third track where practical. The other bottleneck is the now poor track configuration leading into Denver's Union Station. That would have to be rebuilt. Obviously, the equipment to operate it would also have to be procured.

For a tiny fraction of the cost of a high-speed rail project, a passenger train running at Interstate Highway speeds or better could be operating in short order between most of the major cities in the Rocky Mountain region. It would also have the benefit of running relatively close to and connecting several major National Parks--Big Bend, Rocky Mountain, Yellowstone, and Glacier.

It could be a great "proof of concept" of what a well-run conventional passenger train might be able to do in this region. And, it could be running in a couple of years, instead of 20.
To build all that track, I can't see the advantage of that over just flying?

To me with all this it is unfortunate that people ignore the market. If there was a need for such a train, it would exist or be in the works. These days with interstates and planes, it takes quite a lot to want to ride at 70 mph in a train across country making a bunch of stops along the way.

Looking forward rather than back is the way to go. Rail faded out because it's slow and not flexible according to demand. They'll have to come up with a new trick and an affordable one as well. I don't see that right now.
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