Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I was always taught -- you mess with the police, you better have your cemetery plot picked out.
If police tells you to stop, you stop immediately. If police tells you to put your hands up or they'll blow your brains off -- you better not call that a bluff.
I can't believe that we are even discussing the ABC of how to obey a police officer.
Exactly. I don't know where these people were raised.
For my money, I'm going by Wilson's "injuries." Sorry babe, but those aren't life threatening. They aren't even injuries you'd go into work late over. To shoot an unarmed suspect 6 times over those "injuries" is callous and stupid.
Bad bet.
At the time of an altercation, one does not stop, look to examine their injuries and based on that, decide to shoot or not.
Unarmed people kill other people, that is a fact.
Lets not forget something very important. A police officer need not retreat nor abandon the apprehension of a person suspected of omitting a felony. That means a police office has the authority to prosecute an arrest in the face of resistance, attack or other impediments and does not have to stop just because someone else says so.
Now, in the heat of an altercation, it is the fear of injury that is sufficient to use deadly force in self defense because no one can know to what extent those injuries might be. It would be wonderful if one could know with absolute certainty that they were only going to get a bruise on the face or jaw but life doesn't work that way. A punch to the head can kill you as surely as a bullet. Since no one can know the extent of a possible injury nor a subsequent injury if they have already been struck once, the defense is to stop the individual from continuing the attack. A fist is not a resistance, it is an attack.
Once the police was hit he gained the authority (and likely had it before) to prosecute an arrest and he did not have to stop until the arrest was effected. That means the police officer did not have to back off for any reason except in the presence of a higher lawful authority that ordered otherwise. There was no higher lawful authority present.
The individual wasn't shot because he injured the police officer, he was shot because of a continued attack that was preceded by an attack on the officer.
Lots of thing sound callous and stupid until you learn how things really work.
Lets take an imaginary example. Say you were walking down the street with (insert beloved family member here) and someone walking the other way hit them in the face and then continued to walk away. You call out to them and they turn around and begin to travel toward you. The individual is about 6' 3" tall or better and appears to weigh upwards of 250 pounds. You do what?
1. Stop to survey the injury to your beloved (family member here) and realizing it might only be a bruise, caution the individual that they behaved inappropriately and that they should stop, hoping they do or;
2. Take a defensive position to protect yourself and your beloved or;
3. Pick up the 2x4 on the yard a foot away and prepare to knock the living snot out of the individual whether they stop or not and knowing full well that hitting someone with a 2x4 on any place of their body could lead to their death or;
4. Retreat or;
5. In fear of your life and the life of another do whatever is necessary to protect yourself even if it means killing the other person.
At the time of an altercation, one does not stop, look to examine their injuries and based on that, decide to shoot or not.
Unarmed people kill other people, that is a fact.
Lets not forget something very important. A police officer need not retreat nor abandon the apprehension of a person suspected of omitting a felony. That means a police office has the authority to prosecute an arrest in the face of resistance, attack or other impediments and does not have to stop just because someone else says so.
Now, in the heat of an altercation, it is the fear of injury that is sufficient to use deadly force in self defense because no one can know to what extent those injuries might be. It would be wonderful if one could know with absolute certainty that they were only going to get a bruise on the face or jaw but life doesn't work that way. A punch to the head can kill you as surely as a bullet. Since no one can know the extent of a possible injury nor a subsequent injury if they have already been struck once, the defense is to stop the individual from continuing the attack. A fist is not a resistance, it is an attack.
Once the police was hit he gained the authority (and likely had it before) to prosecute an arrest and he did not have to stop until the arrest was effected. That means the police officer did not have to back off for any reason except in the presence of a higher lawful authority that ordered otherwise. There was no higher lawful authority present.
The individual wasn't shot because he injured the police officer, he was shot because of a continued attack that was preceded by an attack on the officer.
Lots of thing sound callous and stupid until you learn how things really work.
Lets take an imaginary example. Say you were walking down the street with (insert beloved family member here) and someone walking the other way hit them in the face and then continued to walk away. You call out to them and they turn around and begin to travel toward you. The individual is about 6' 3" tall or better and appears to weigh upwards of 250 pounds. You do what?
1. Stop to survey the injury to your beloved (family member here) and realizing it might only be a bruise, caution the individual that they behaved inappropriately and that they should stop, hoping they do or;
2. Take a defensive position to protect yourself and your beloved or;
3. Pick up the 2x4 on the yard a foot away and prepare to knock the living snot out of the individual whether they stop or not and knowing full well that hitting someone with a 2x4 on any place of their body could lead to their death or;
4. Retreat or;
5. In fear of your life and the life of another do whatever is necessary to protect yourself even if it means killing the other person.
I have friends and family in Ferguson and I could think of much worse things to call them.
For one, they are - truly - domestic terrorists and they've caused a whole lot of damage in a community that was struggling before all this mess.
Even an animal knows better than to foul its own nest, but these domestic terrorists (most of whom are *probably* from the Missouri/Illinois area) have committed all manner of crimes, such as arson, looting, destruction of property, etc.
Will Ferguson survive this, or will it become another East St. Louis or Cairo, Illinois?
These domestic terrorists didn't "just" loot a town; they may well have destroyed it, or at very least, damaged it irreparably.
At the time of an altercation, one does not stop, look to examine their injuries and based on that, decide to shoot or not.
Unarmed people kill other people, that is a fact.
Lets not forget something very important. A police officer need not retreat nor abandon the apprehension of a person suspected of omitting a felony. That means a police office has the authority to prosecute an arrest in the face of resistance, attack or other impediments and does not have to stop just because someone else says so.
Now, in the heat of an altercation, it is the fear of injury that is sufficient to use deadly force in self defense because no one can know to what extent those injuries might be. It would be wonderful if one could know with absolute certainty that they were only going to get a bruise on the face or jaw but life doesn't work that way. A punch to the head can kill you as surely as a bullet. Since no one can know the extent of a possible injury nor a subsequent injury if they have already been struck once, the defense is to stop the individual from continuing the attack. A fist is not a resistance, it is an attack.
Once the police was hit he gained the authority (and likely had it before) to prosecute an arrest and he did not have to stop until the arrest was effected. That means the police officer did not have to back off for any reason except in the presence of a higher lawful authority that ordered otherwise. There was no higher lawful authority present.
The individual wasn't shot because he injured the police officer, he was shot because of a continued attack that was preceded by an attack on the officer.
Lots of thing sound callous and stupid until you learn how things really work.
Lets take an imaginary example. Say you were walking down the street with (insert beloved family member here) and someone walking the other way hit them in the face and then continued to walk away. You call out to them and they turn around and begin to travel toward you. The individual is about 6' 3" tall or better and appears to weigh upwards of 250 pounds. You do what?
1. Stop to survey the injury to your beloved (family member here) and realizing it might only be a bruise, caution the individual that they behaved inappropriately and that they should stop, hoping they do or;
2. Take a defensive position to protect yourself and your beloved or;
3. Pick up the 2x4 on the yard a foot away and prepare to knock the living snot out of the individual whether they stop or not and knowing full well that hitting someone with a 2x4 on any place of their body could lead to their death or;
4. Retreat or;
5. In fear of your life and the life of another do whatever is necessary to protect yourself even if it means killing the other person.
Pick one, you have exactly 2 seconds to decide.
I would modify it slightly:
1- If perpetrator is white, pick up the 2x4 and kick the snot out of the offender.
2- If perpetrator is black, you're **** out of luck. Because if you pick up the 2x4 you will be prosecuted by Eric Holder for Civil Rights violations.
Barkley just came out with strong statements supporting the Ferguson decision.
While some may say who cares, I admire him as a public figure not afraid to speak against the grain. Lots of other celebs are doing things like not releasing their designer shoes in protest of the Ferguson decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghengis
plus, he's a bit of a red-neck
And they say the Politically Correct don't revert to stereotyping?
I'll break down my earlier example with some commentary to help in understanding how things work:
Your choices were:
1. Stop to survey the injury to your beloved (family member here) and realizing it might only be a bruise, caution the individual that they behaved inappropriately and that they should stop, hoping they do or;
With this choice you are hoping the individual has realized what they've done and in an epiphany of humble understanding await their apology. While it could happen, the greater risk is that they have decided to finish the job they started and are going to begin with you, after which they will go after your beloved.
In this case, you are the police officer and your beloved in the public. The police officer must consider the danger to the public because someone who has just attacked them must be considered an extreme risk to the public. Simply letting them apologize or walk away is not acceptable. If that individual turns the corner and attacks some old lady or young child and kills them, the police officer would be held negligent and possible criminally so.
2. Take a defensive position to protect yourself and your beloved or;
Here, you are preparing to defend yourself but await an attack that is likely to come. Waiting for an imminent attack is folly and increases the risk to yourself and your beloved.
Consider the position of the police officer. They are duty bound not to wait for an attack but to prevent it. The difference is important because one is passive while the other is active. If the police officer awaits the attack then they put themselves at greater risk and in so doing also risk their ability to protect the public. Never forget that the police officer is also a member of the public. If the police officer becomes disabled in the attack then they are unable to protect the public. The police officer must protect themselves even if it means an aggressive behavior toward someone appearing to attack but has not yet attacked. For this reason, a defensive posture is inappropriate.
3. Pick up the 2x4 on the yard a foot away and prepare to knock the living snot out of the individual whether they stop or not and knowing full well that hitting someone with a 2x4 on any place of their body could lead to their death or;
This is closer to a best response but falls short. You've picked up a 2x4 but are still defensive. The individual coming toward you has already displayed violence and obviously committed a crime. Since they are approaching you, given what they did it obviously is highly unlikely they want to talk to you. You are still defensive.
Now the police officer. Here the 2x4 could be a baton or other less lethal force such as a taser or bean bag from a shotgun. Less lethal just means they are less likely to produce death as the force when using a firearm. All force can kill. But the officer must consider what happens or could happen if less lethal force is used. If the less lethal force fails and the officer does not have backup, they are left with only lethal force if there is time and opportunity to use it. It is often unlikely that lethal force is available quickly enough to be effective if the officer is alone and less lethal force has failed. This is because they are then in close proximity to the attacker and must change tactics and weapons and this puts them at a disadvantage. Since the attacker has already tried to grab the officer's firearm, they have in effect attempted to use deadly force against the officer.
4. Retreat or;
You'll never make it. Even if you do, what about your beloved, do you just have to run faster than the attacker or just faster than your (inset family member here)?
The police officer shall not retreat in the apprehension of a person they suspect of having committed a felony. Only when the protection of the public is better served can the officer retreat from effecting an arrest. In this case, we have an individual who was suspected of stealing whatever and has already attacked the officer and attempted to gain control of deadly force. It is unreasonable to believe that someone who tries to take an officer's firearm does not intend to use that firearm to commit additional crimes. Therefore; the officer must continue to effect an arrest using all means at their disposal since the situation has already escalated to attempted use of deadly force.
5. In fear of your life and the life of another do whatever is necessary to protect yourself even if it means killing the other person.
The right answer. Any other answer carries a greater risk to you and your beloved. While the response might include picking up the 2x4, it doesn't include waiting for the attack but can and probably would include an aggressive behavior in defense of yourself and beloved. Aggressive behavior can be defensive because the behavior is designed to stop the attacker.
Now the police officer. The use or attempted use of deadly force by the individual has already occurred. The moment the individual touched the officer's firearm or even attempted to do so the level of force went past less lethal measure to deadly force. Having already experienced the attempted use of their own firearm against them, even if just by touching it, the officer is now in the position that they must at all costs defend against it. The officer must consider what could happen if another physical altercation took place and they lost control of their firearm. The officer must not consider what would happen if a physical altercation took place and they retained possession of their firearm because they are duty bound to reduce that risk, not bet on it.
The police officer therefore, upon seeing an attacker moving toward them and having already been physically struck and functioning at less than optimum condition, had to use lethal force to stop the attacker. The risk to themselves and nearly as important, the risk to the public demanded no less.
This was decided within seconds of time passing.
This did not start with the Officer deciding to stop Brown, it started when Brown created the thought to steal something from someone else. Everything after the thought Brown created in his mind was a result of that thought.
That includes his own death.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
