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Old 07-22-2015, 01:56 PM
 
Location: I'm around here someplace :)
3,633 posts, read 4,256,342 times
Reputation: 3980

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabber_wocky View Post
My problem with the topic in general- meaning, regardless of which 'side' a person is on- is it's almost always the "all or nothing" approach. From my POV, both sides are wrong.

In my opinion, there are some vaccines that are necessary in the interest of public health. Example: does anyone really want to risk another polio epidemic? One acquaintance's mother died of polio shortly before the vaccine came out.
But also, in my opinion, there's too much coming up that's not been adequately tested. Example: I was in Junior High when a chicken pox vaccine came out; it was not available very long before it was found to be useless. Another example: how many girls/women have died due to Gardasil? My friend's daughter was one of them.

 
Old 07-22-2015, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
...snip...

Vaccines do not contain aluminum in "very high doses".

From the same link:

1kg = 1,000g = 1,000,000mg = 1,000,000,000μg

Here are some real-world examples of those weights (technically masses):
1kg = a 1L bottle of soda
1g = a paper clip
1mg = a very, very small snowflake
1μg = take your paper clip, cut it into a million pieces and take one of those

5000 micrograms is 5000 millionths =5 thousandths of the weight of a paper clip.
1μg is equal to 1mcg...

1 microgram (mcg) = 0.001 milligram (mg)
1 μg = 0.001 mg

5000 mcg (μg) = 5mg

Where do you think the aluminum goes after injection in the muscle? The blood stream. It bypasses the GI tract and can accumulate in the body.

The recommendation by the FDA for a baby to get MAX 5mcg/kg/day by IV is valid with IM injection as well. We don't know how long it takes the aluminum to reach the blood stream but we certainly know it does. Imagine then that the delay causes a serum level of over 5mcg/kg/day. Imagine that the level injected in a newborn from the Hep B shot is 500 mcg. of AL, in an average newborn that would be 147 mcg. per kg. So you think it is unsafe to exceed 5mcg/kg/day with IV (FDA) but are fine with 147mcg/kg in one shot sitting in the muscle and no one knows when all that AL will hit the bloodstream? Say it takes place over the course of 2 weeks. That is 10.5mcg/kg/day exposure.

Then 6 weeks after all that AL is released into the bloodstream (70% which is supposedly able to accumulate) that same baby is given 1475 mcg. more which is 351 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight in a normal weight baby (9lbs). Say that takes 2 weeks to enter the bloodstream. That means that for 14 days there is 25mcg/kg/day entering the bloodstream.

Then we have the shots at 4 months old. Then 6 months old. ETC.

Given that load plus what is ingested, inhaled, and absorbed in our various situations... You still don't find that to be a problem? Even if you don't see the problem, are you open minded enough to admit it could trouble some parents?
 
Old 07-22-2015, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,957 posts, read 8,893,958 times
Reputation: 18330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
So you are saying that 50% of the general public is listening to "anti-vaxers" and not getting flu shots?

Shut them up and everyone will then get a flu shot? lol

"I got the Flu shot and got the Flu"
"I have never had the Flu so don't need it"
"Never thought about it"
"The Flu is no big deal"

Anti-vaxers are spreading this? I think with Flu shots these people are using their OWN personal experience and not your anti-science websites. Maybe people do not have experience with diseases like measles, and you can scare people with that, but too many people have experienced the flu themselves, and lived to tell about it.

Suzy, sorry, it is not anti-vaxers to blame for low flu vaccinations. It's personal experience.
Regarding the "I got the flu shot and got the flu", I asked my doctor about that, and he said there are 2 things going on. First, the vaccines for the flu are not 100%, and no one ever claimed they were. Second, as soon as you get the vaccine, your body does exactly what it's supposed to do -- ramping up the immune response, and so often you will feel a little sick for the first 24 hours (give or take).
 
Old 07-22-2015, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Regarding the "I got the flu shot and got the flu", I asked my doctor about that, and he said there are 2 things going on. First, the vaccines for the flu are not 100%, and no one ever claimed they were. Second, as soon as you get the vaccine, your body does exactly what it's supposed to do -- ramping up the immune response, and so often you will feel a little sick for the first 24 hours (give or take).
My OB convinced me to get a flu shot when pregnant and I was so sick I could hardly move. Vomiting, fever, chills, fatigue, body aches, diarrhea, congestion, etc. The only thing I could eat was yogurt. It was horrible. Never been that sick before or since. The OB said it wasn't from the flu shot...

However, since your body is busy fighting off the vaccine... you are more susceptible to other strains of flu.

I'd rather not take my chances by diverting my immune system to a fake threat while it misses the real one.
 
Old 07-22-2015, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
18,957 posts, read 8,893,958 times
Reputation: 18330
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
My OB convinced me to get a flu shot when pregnant and I was so sick I could hardly move. Vomiting, fever, chills, fatigue, body aches, diarrhea, congestion, etc. The only thing I could eat was yogurt. It was horrible. Never been that sick before or since. The OB said it wasn't from the flu shot...

However, since your body is busy fighting off the vaccine... you are more susceptible to other strains of flu.

I'd rather not take my chances by diverting my immune system to a fake threat while it misses the real one.
There is no question that taking a vaccine is playing a game of odds. Which is likely a greater threat? Catching the flu or a bad reaction.

So I suppose you never take medicine. Because MANY of our medications today bring about bad reactions.

I suppose you never have needed surgery. Because there are risks to every surgery.

A wise person plays the odds.

Someone earlier mentioned the tetanus vaccine. Admittedly, your chances of getting "lockjaw" are pretty slim, but it's a horrible death if you do. So, again, you play the odds based on your life style.
 
Old 07-22-2015, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,534 posts, read 26,146,877 times
Reputation: 26537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tia 914 View Post
My problem with the topic in general- meaning, regardless of which 'side' a person is on- is it's almost always the "all or nothing" approach. From my POV, both sides are wrong.

In my opinion, there are some vaccines that are necessary in the interest of public health. Example: does anyone really want to risk another polio epidemic? One acquaintance's mother died of polio shortly before the vaccine came out.
But also, in my opinion, there's too much coming up that's not been adequately tested. Example: I was in Junior High when a chicken pox vaccine came out; it was not available very long before it was found to be useless. Another example: how many girls/women have died due to Gardasil? My friend's daughter was one of them.
The chickenpox vaccine is not useless.

Chickenpox | Vaccine Infographic | Varicella | CDC

Since the vaccine came out, there has been a dramatic drop in the number of cases, number of hospitalizations, and number of deaths from chickenpox.

Where can we find the case report for your friend's daughter's death? Since there has never been a confirmed death from Gardasil I would be interested in reading the report and I assure you it would have made the news on medical sites.

Edited to add: Your risk of getting polio is close to zero. It would have to be brought here by a traveler who picked it up in one of the few areas of the world where wild polio still exists. You are much more likely to get seriously ill or die from chicken pox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
1μg is equal to 1mcg...

1 microgram (mcg) = 0.001 milligram (mg)
1 μg = 0.001 mg

5000 mcg (μg) = 5mg

Where do you think the aluminum goes after injection in the muscle? The blood stream. It bypasses the GI tract and can accumulate in the body.

The recommendation by the FDA for a baby to get MAX 5mcg/kg/day by IV is valid with IM injection as well. We don't know how long it takes the aluminum to reach the blood stream but we certainly know it does. Imagine then that the delay causes a serum level of over 5mcg/kg/day. Imagine that the level injected in a newborn from the Hep B shot is 500 mcg. of AL, in an average newborn that would be 147 mcg. per kg. So you think it is unsafe to exceed 5mcg/kg/day with IV (FDA) but are fine with 147mcg/kg in one shot sitting in the muscle and no one knows when all that AL will hit the bloodstream? Say it takes place over the course of 2 weeks. That is 10.5mcg/kg/day exposure.

Then 6 weeks after all that AL is released into the bloodstream (70% which is supposedly able to accumulate) that same baby is given 1475 mcg. more which is 351 mcg. of aluminum per kg. of body weight in a normal weight baby (9lbs). Say that takes 2 weeks to enter the bloodstream. That means that for 14 days there is 25mcg/kg/day entering the bloodstream.

Then we have the shots at 4 months old. Then 6 months old. ETC.

Given that load plus what is ingested, inhaled, and absorbed in our various situations... You still don't find that to be a problem? Even if you don't see the problem, are you open minded enough to admit it could trouble some parents?
People are troubled exactly because of nonsense like what you are posting here.

From my previous link, 5mg is the weight (actually mass) of 5 very small snowflakes.

The IV limits for aluminum do not apply to aluminum given IM or subcutaneously. Aluminum given by those routes does not accumulate, and the elimination kinetics are known.

http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/...inum-paper.pdf

"We updated the analysis of Keith et al. [1] with a current pediatric vaccination schedule [2];
baseline aluminum levels at birth; an aluminum retention function that reflects changing glomerular
filtration rates in infants; an adjustment for the kinetics of aluminum efflux at the site of injection;
contemporaneous MRLs; and the most recent infant body weight data for children 0–60 months of age
[3]. Using these updated parameters we found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and
diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden
of aluminum modeled using the regulatory MRL. We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that
contain aluminum adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the benefits of using
vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any theoretical concerns."

https://vaxplanations.wordpress.com/...t-is-it-toxic/

'Dr Sears says that the amount of aluminium in vaccines is more than injectable aluminium guidelines. He says the FDA advises that premature babies and any patient with impaired kidney function shouldn’t get more than 10 to 25 micrograms of injected aluminum at any one time, yet the total dose of aluminum can vary from 250 micrograms at birth (Hep B) to 295 – 1225 micrograms at 2, 4 and 6 months. He is a medical doctor, and he is worried that these aluminium levels far exceed what may be safe for young babies.'

There is a glaring error with Dr Sears aluminium information that would likely go over most people’s heads. Vaccines are what’s called a biological product. They have a different guideline to aluminium levels in food and a different guideline to aluminium levels in continuous nutritional intravenous products (parenteral nutrition).

Dietary aluminum is in such small quantities that it is not a significant source of concern in persons with normal elimination capacity. Premature babies do not have a normal elimination capacity, so the IV nutritional guideline needs to factor this in.

Dr Sears compares aluminium in intravenous nutrition products for preemie babies to aluminium in intramuscular vaccines. He is comparing the level of aluminium in vaccines to the wrong guideline.

Anti-vax sites are notorious for making this same error eg. they will compare environmental mercury from drinking water (a guideline determined by the EPA) to thimerosal in vaccines (a guideline determined by the FDA – for biological intramuscular injectables)

Here is the correct value:

Chapter 21 of the US Code of Federal Regulations [610.15(a)] limits the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg per dose."

It is certainly true that the difference between aluminum in parenteral nutrition products and aluminum in vaccines is over your head.

The FDA rule For vaccines:

CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21

"The amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of a biological product shall not exceed:

(1) 0.85 milligrams if determined by assay;

(2) 1.14 milligrams if determined by calculation on the basis of the amount of aluminum compound added; or

(3) 1.25 milligrams determined by assay provided that data demonstrating that the amount of aluminum used is safe and necessary to produce the intended effect are submitted to and approved by the Director, Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research or the Director, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research."



Your argument that the amount of aluminum in vaccines exceeds the safe limit established by the FDA is contradicted by the FDA rule itself, which states in clear English what those limits are. The amount of aluminum in a dose of vaccine given IM or subcutaneously is about the weight of one small snowflake. It is tiny and it is not harmful.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 07-22-2015 at 04:25 PM..
 
Old 07-22-2015, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,534 posts, read 26,146,877 times
Reputation: 26537
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
My OB convinced me to get a flu shot when pregnant and I was so sick I could hardly move. Vomiting, fever, chills, fatigue, body aches, diarrhea, congestion, etc. The only thing I could eat was yogurt. It was horrible. Never been that sick before or since. The OB said it wasn't from the flu shot...

However, since your body is busy fighting off the vaccine... you are more susceptible to other strains of flu.

I'd rather not take my chances by diverting my immune system to a fake threat while it misses the real one.
You either caught the flu before the vaccine had time to work, you got a strain not included in the vaccine, or you did not have influenza but gastroenteritis - what many people refer to as "stomach flu". Influenza typically does not cause significant vomiting and diarrhea in adults. The vaccine did not prevent you from being sick, but it did not cause you to be sick, either. Your OB is correct.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 07-22-2015 at 04:33 PM..
 
Old 07-22-2015, 04:48 PM
 
5,654 posts, read 3,202,909 times
Reputation: 6636
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No, Jo, it's ignorance that is to blame for the low flu vaccination rate.

People refuse the vaccine because they do believe the vaccine will cause a flu infection. Mercola says so.

People who have never had the flu do not understand that is no guarantee they never will, or "I feed my family a healthy diet and give them herbal immune boosters so we will not get the flu". Mercola will sell you the immune boosters. "If my family gets the flu, I will just treat them with more herbs and vitamin D."

"Never thought about it." Really? Must be a hermit with no contact with the real world.

"The flu is no big deal." Mercola will tell you what you have is not the flu, it's just a cold. "Here, take some garlic and vitamin D Head on over to my online store. I have just what you need."

Every year thousands of people have the flu and do not live to talk about it, including some pregnant women and their unborn babies.

https://drjengunter.wordpress.com/20...ritically-ill/

"In the recent California study 14 of the 18 pregnant women who required intensive care admission with influenza had not been vaccinated against the flu (only 1 had been vaccinated and the vaccine status of 3 was unknown)."

Most people who have really had the flu want to never have it again and opt for the vaccine.
Dear Suzy, I cannot count the number of times as a child, teen and young woman I got the flu. Not pleasant, but over many, many decades I have experienced far worse things that the flu in my younger years. Haven't had it in decades. Did Dr. Mercola tell me that? lol Was Dr. Mercola on the Internet 30 years ago?????

Sorry, Suzy, my OWN EXPERIENCE in my old age tells me the opposite of what your scripted advertising says.
 
Old 07-22-2015, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,391,622 times
Reputation: 1690
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
...snip...


People are troubled exactly because of nonsense like what you are posting here.

From my previous link, 5mg is the weight (actually mass) of 5 very small snowflakes.

The IV limits for aluminum do not apply to aluminum given IM or subcutaneously. Aluminum given by those routes does not accumulate, and the elimination kinetics are known.

http://vaccinepapers.org/wp-content/...inum-paper.pdf

"We updated the analysis of Keith et al. [1] with a current pediatric vaccination schedule [2];
baseline aluminum levels at birth; an aluminum retention function that reflects changing glomerular
filtration rates in infants; an adjustment for the kinetics of aluminum efflux at the site of injection;
contemporaneous MRLs; and the most recent infant body weight data for children 0–60 months of age
[3]. Using these updated parameters we found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and
diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden
of aluminum modeled using the regulatory MRL. We conclude that episodic exposures to vaccines that
contain aluminum adjuvant continue to be extremely low risk to infants and that the benefits of using
vaccines containing aluminum adjuvant outweigh any theoretical concerns."

https://vaxplanations.wordpress.com/...t-is-it-toxic/

'Dr Sears says that the amount of aluminium in vaccines is more than injectable aluminium guidelines. He says the FDA advises that premature babies and any patient with impaired kidney function shouldn’t get more than 10 to 25 micrograms of injected aluminum at any one time, yet the total dose of aluminum can vary from 250 micrograms at birth (Hep B) to 295 – 1225 micrograms at 2, 4 and 6 months. He is a medical doctor, and he is worried that these aluminium levels far exceed what may be safe for young babies.'

There is a glaring error with Dr Sears aluminium information that would likely go over most people’s heads. Vaccines are what’s called a biological product. They have a different guideline to aluminium levels in food and a different guideline to aluminium levels in continuous nutritional intravenous products (parenteral nutrition).

Dietary aluminum is in such small quantities that it is not a significant source of concern in persons with normal elimination capacity. Premature babies do not have a normal elimination capacity, so the IV nutritional guideline needs to factor this in.

Dr Sears compares aluminium in intravenous nutrition products for preemie babies to aluminium in intramuscular vaccines. He is comparing the level of aluminium in vaccines to the wrong guideline.

Anti-vax sites are notorious for making this same error eg. they will compare environmental mercury from drinking water (a guideline determined by the EPA) to thimerosal in vaccines (a guideline determined by the FDA – for biological intramuscular injectables)

Here is the correct value:

Chapter 21 of the US Code of Federal Regulations [610.15(a)] limits the amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of biological products, including vaccines, to not more than 0.85-1.25 mg per dose."

It is certainly true that the difference between aluminum in parenteral nutrition products and aluminum in vaccines is over your head.

The FDA rule For vaccines:

CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21

"The amount of aluminum in the recommended individual dose of a biological product shall not exceed:

(1) 0.85 milligrams if determined by assay;

(2) 1.14 milligrams if determined by calculation on the basis of the amount of aluminum compound added; or

(3) 1.25 milligrams determined by assay provided that data demonstrating that the amount of aluminum used is safe and necessary to produce the intended effect are submitted to and approved by the Director, Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research or the Director, Center for Drug Evaluation and Research."



Your argument that the amount of aluminum in vaccines exceeds the safe limit established by the FDA is contradicted by the FDA rule itself, which states in clear English what those limits are. The amount of aluminum in a dose of vaccine given IM or subcutaneously is about the weight of one small snowflake. It is tiny and it is not harmful.
Every MSDS sheet I have seen has "Unknown" for toxicity levels in injections and long term exposure. And my argument is that parents have the right to be concerned. You seem to think that pharmaceutical companies make an infallible product that should not be questioned. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated that you unequivocally support vaccines and will not hear of a different viewpoint.

You are welcome to inject you and your children with a "small snowflake" of aluminum over and over again if you want.

Every person differs. Aluminum in vaccines becomes toxic at the point where the body cannot excrete it as fast as it is introduced. You don't know that level and neither do the "experts."
 
Old 07-22-2015, 05:27 PM
 
5,654 posts, read 3,202,909 times
Reputation: 6636
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
My OB convinced me to get a flu shot when pregnant and I was so sick I could hardly move. Vomiting, fever, chills, fatigue, body aches, diarrhea, congestion, etc. The only thing I could eat was yogurt. It was horrible. Never been that sick before or since. The OB said it wasn't from the flu shot...

However, since your body is busy fighting off the vaccine... you are more susceptible to other strains of flu.

I'd rather not take my chances by diverting my immune system to a fake threat while it misses the real one.
While I agree with your choice to not get a flu vaccination, I think you had "stomach flu" not influenza. Imagine ME agreeing with SuzyQ who doesn't think I know what the flu is in my old age? Flu will be sneezing, coughing, and aches and chills which come from the FEVER of a flu. That is the difference with a simple cold. Sneezing and coughing but no fever, so no aches and chills. You have no infection/fever with a cold and that is why antibiotics are not given for a cold.

Vomiting and diarrhea are not typical flu symptoms , but certainly are for a norovirus or stomach flu, and far, far worse for food poisoning. With that one, you will be vomiting WATER too.
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