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I understand these may be big words to some but they're important words. Mandating healthcare instead of using markets is against what this country promotes as capitalism. We can't have a loss of free market just because propaganda frightens the public. If we give the government power to override parental decisions it will lead to further restrictions on liberties.
We now have mandatory government forced health insurance, not government paid but forced on us to pay or we will get fined large sums of money, slowly removing the ability for people to afford. Now we are moving into medicine. We are going to be coerced and threatened into taking medicine. If we don't we can't send our children to a school that we already pay taxes for.
This isn't a democracy, it's a forced socialized healthcare system. It's communist in nature and not the direction I believe this country should be going. Mimicking Mexico is not my idea of a great plan. I realize some of you are proud of Mexico's forced vaccine program and wish to see that here where vaccination police can just go into your home and vaccinate your child without you present as some have touted, but some of us like America pre mandates with choice available and a free market economy.
I understand these may be big words to some but they're important words. Mandating healthcare instead of using markets is against what this country promotes as capitalism. We can't have a loss of free market just because propaganda frightens the public. If we give the government power to override parental decisions it will lead to further restrictions on liberties.
We now have mandatory government forced health insurance, not government paid but forced on us to pay or we will get fined large sums of money. Now we are moving into medicine. We are going to be coerced and threatened into taking medicine. If we don't we can't send our children to a school that we already pay taxes for.
This isn't a democracy, it's a forced socialized healthcare system. It's communist in nature and not the direction I believe this country should be going. Mimicking Mexico is not my idea of a great plan. I realize some of you are proud of Mexico's forced vaccine program and wish to see that here where vaccination police can just go into your home and vaccinate your child without you present but some of us like America pre mandates with choice available and a free market economy.
I think Mexico's vaccination program goes too far.
I prefer the system that was just enacted in California where those who--have until now--refused vaccinations get a choice. They can choose to avoid vaccination and and home school their children. Those who want to vaccinate and participate in the community with the rest can come to public school.
That's the American way!
I have my opinions on some of the other things you mention. However, they are off-topic.
Poppysead, I understand and agree. First, forced health insurance, or "tax" as SC called it. It is a chipping away in small steps. Next step would be forced (mandated) medical care/treatment in using that health insurance? Vaccinations are medical treatment. Make it so coercive that it is all but impossible to refuse.
Like California is doing. No vaccinations, no public or private schooling. Homeschooling next? No vaccinations, no employment in Day Care Facilities. What are the Criminal Penalties for non-compliance? Jail? Of course, the next with that one will be lose your job in K-12 education and probably colleges and universities also. Next?
The NAIP is intended to facilitate coordinated action by federal and nonfederal partners to protect public
health and achieve optimal prevention of infectious diseases and their consequences through vaccination of
adults. The NAIP includes indicators to draw attention to and track progress against core goals. These
indicators will measure progress against set standards and inform future implementation and quality
improvement efforts. The plan establishes four key goals, each of which is supported by objectives and
strategies to guide implementation through 2020:
Goal 1: Strengthen the adult immunization infrastructure.
Goal 2: Improve access to adult vaccines.
Goal 3: Increase community demand for adult immunizations.
Goal 4: Foster innovation in adult vaccine development and vaccination-related technologies.
Achieving the goals of the NAIP is facilitated by agreement on plan priorities and coordination of the wide
range of programs that support them. The Assistant Secretary for Health serves as the director of the
National Vaccine Program and will lead the NAIP and its implementation. In support of this mission,
NVPO will facilitate collaboration and coordinate the monitoring of progress for the NAIP.
Under each goal is a set of strategic objectives to steer improvement efforts within functional areas critical
to achieving the goal. Within those objectives, the NAIP identifies key strategies to guide implementation
through 2020. The strategies encourage focused attention on areas that can have the greatest impact toward
achieving the vision of a robust immunization system that will improve adult health by protecting adults
against vaccine-preventable diseases and their complications.
The goal of the Plan? To vastly increase the number of adults in the US who are vaccinated against diseases in accordance with the CDC schedule of vaccines.
Sounds familiar.....seems like goals are being met.
Enhancing Access to Vaccination Services
Home Visits to Increase Vaccination Rates Recommended
March 2009
Reducing Client Out-of-Pocket Costs Recommended
October 2008
Vaccination Programs in Schools and Organized Child Care Centers Recommended
June 2009
Vaccination Programs in WIC Settings Recommended
March 2009
Increasing Community Demand for Vaccinations
Client or Family Incentive Rewards Recommended
April 2011
Client Reminder and Recall Systems Recommended
February 2008
Client-Held Paper Immunization Records Insufficient Evidence
March 2010
Clinic-Based Education when Used Alone Insufficient Evidence
February 2011
Community-Wide Education when Used Alone Insufficient Evidence
March 2010
Community-Based Interventions Implemented in Combination Recommended
October 2014
Monetary Sanction Policies Insufficient Evidence
April 2011
Vaccination Requirements for Child Care, School and College Attendance Recommended
June 2009
Provider- or System-Based Interventions
Health Care System-Based Interventions Implemented in Combination Recommended
October 2014
Immunization Information Systems Recommended
July 2010
Provider Assessment and Feedback Recommended
February 2008
Provider Education when Used Alone Insufficient Evidence
March 2010
Provider Reminders Recommended
June 2008
Standing Orders Recommended
June 2008 The Community Guide - Increasing Appropriate Vaccination
Yep.....I see some are jealous of this. Not me, no thanks, I like America.
Mexico more effective than U.S. at immunizing children
Mexico's paternalistic approach has led to a 96% vaccination rate for children ages 1 to 4, compared with 79% of American 2-year-olds.
By EDWARD HEGSTROM
Houston Chronicle
MONTERREY, MEXICO – If parents here are late getting their child inoculated, a public-health nurse will come to their home, pull down the youngster's pants and give the vaccination right there in the living room.
I won't go this far to compete with a country who's citizens are rushing our borders to escape it. No wonder we have some many coming here. Their country sucks. Maybe they'll run back after we become just like them in a few years.
I think Mexico's vaccination program goes too far.
I prefer the system that was just enacted in California where those who--have until now--refused vaccinations get a choice. They can choose to avoid vaccination and and home school their children. Those who want to vaccinate and participate in the community with the rest can come to public school.
That's the American way!
I have my opinions on some of the other things you mention. However, they are off-topic.
Well, prepare yourself then because if we let these mandates continue that's what will come to be. It's in the outlined program. The program that was just posed to California isn't going to be it. Already more are in the pipeline.
Do they get the money they will lose if they home school? How will they provide for their family if they are required by law to be with their child to home school? Go on welfare? There are no tax allowances for homeschoolers. They not only have to quite their jobs but have to buy all materials for homeschooling? Is there a fund set up for those who refuse a vaccine or want to vaccinate on a different schedule when they get kicked out? What about parents who themselves do not have an education? How well will they teach their kids, broke, forced on welfare and uneducated?
What kind of choice do you really think reflects the American way? What kind of choice is "you can vaccinate the way we want you to or you can be poor and your child can lack a good education? " Variables please, think of the variables here. This isn't a choice, it's a threat. We have a lot of one parent households that can't do this without seriously threatening their livelihood.
Besides, it's not like California has a lax home school law.
Last edited by PoppySead; 07-20-2015 at 10:25 AM..
We all know that'll never happen. Adults have a voice. With adults it would become very obvious the damage being done, and we couldn't pretend that it was hereditary, or from some other cause.
How sickening to think that vaccines are a one size fits all...from a 6lb infant on the day of their birth to a 300 lb adult.
We all know that'll never happen. Adults have a voice. With adults it would become very obvious the damage being done, and we couldn't pretend that it was hereditary, or from some other cause.
How sickening to think that vaccines are a one size fits all...from a 6lb infant on the day of their birth to a 300 lb adult.
VAERS reports are not proof that a vaccine caused the condition in the report. Your continuing to misuse VAERS does not help your argument.
There have not been 26 deaths from Gardasil (or 32 or 100 - whatever the number of the day is for the anti-vax crowd). There are no confirmed deaths from Gardasil.
Pap mears do not prevent HPV infections. The vaccine does. Those who get the vaccine before they have any sexual experience will very likely never have an abnormal Pap smear. In fact doctors are switching from doing Pap smears to testing for high risk HPV, so it's likely they may have HPV tests rather than Pap smears.
The incidence of other cancers from HPV is not rare. HPV associated cancers are about 5% of all cancers worldwide.
It cannot cause cancer. There is no whole HPV in the vaccine, so It cannot cause HPV infection.
A Pap smear is not going to help if you get vulvar, anal, or throat cancer.
I presume you never plan to have any children if you always use condoms, which will not protect against all HPV infections.
I cannot find a list of cases in Judicial Watch (the source of the figure for awards by the compensation fund you quote). There are a gazillion anti-vax sites claiming the awards have been made and citing Judicial Watch, but no published data. If any claims have been paid I can find nothing about them. Perhaps you could give us a link to the data at Judicial Watch.
The link I provided was from the Washington Times not VAERS. I'll post it again: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/us-court-pays-6-million-gardasil-victims/
"Judicial Watch announced it has received documents from the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) revealing that its National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded $5,877,710 dollars to 49 victims in claims made against the highly controversial HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccines. To date 200 claims have been filed with VICP, with barely half adjudicated."
I would think you can ask the Washington Times for their source since I did not write the article.
You provided a study with monkeys and vaccines... In the about section of the study it admits: "As the U.S. vaccine schedule has expanded, parental perceptions that vaccines pose safety concerns have grown (Gust et al. 2009; Kempe et al. 2011), especially since there have been no preclinical studies examining the safety of new pediatric vaccine schedules in their entirety before universal recommendation."
In other words... the public are the lab monkeys. This causes concern in parents. It's not that hard to understand why there is a controversy with vaccines and the schedule.
The fact that the pro-vaccine crowd can't understand real concerns shows the "vaccines are safe and effective" brainwashing type campaign is working.
The link I provided was from the Washington Times not VAERS. I'll post it again: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/31/us-court-pays-6-million-gardasil-victims/
"Judicial Watch announced it has received documents from the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) revealing that its National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded $5,877,710 dollars to 49 victims in claims made against the highly controversial HPV (human papillomavirus) vaccines. To date 200 claims have been filed with VICP, with barely half adjudicated."
I would think you can ask the Washington Times for their source since I did not write the article.
You provided a study with monkeys and vaccines... In the about section of the study it admits: "As the U.S. vaccine schedule has expanded, parental perceptions that vaccines pose safety concerns have grown (Gust et al. 2009; Kempe et al. 2011), especially since there have been no preclinical studies examining the safety of new pediatric vaccine schedules in their entirety before universal recommendation."
In other words... the public are the lab monkeys. This causes concern in parents. It's not that hard to understand why there is a controversy with vaccines and the schedule.
The fact that the pro-vaccine crowd can't understand real concerns shows the "vaccines are safe and effective" brainwashing type campaign is working.
The article itself states where the info comes from. Right there, in black & white, two tiny paragraphs down. Here's what it says: "The documents come from the FDA’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) which is used by the FDA to monitor the safety of vaccines"
Oh, and you know what else concerns parents? Cancer.
Why do you assume your ability to understand research is so much better than mine, and that I have been "brainwashed" and am allowing my children to be "lab monkeys?"
I have not been brainwashed. I am intelligent. I pored through THOUSANDS of claims on Gardisil when trying to decide if my children would get it. I read as much as I could and came to the conclusion that many of the reports were made due to coincidental incidents. I don't think it's a case of lying when people make these claims. I think, aside from a very few cases that I do not have the knowledge to assess, there were desperately sad people trying to find A reason, ANY reason so they had someone or something to blame. This is scapegoating. I don't doubt the sincerity of those making the claims. But you must realize that not every claim is legitimate. I know that in VAERS data from a an almost 10 year period, of the MILLIONS of doses of Gardasil given, a few dozen deaths reported could be verified. Of those, there were no clear commonalities or trends or trails to follow to show the deaths were attributed to Gardasil. I took what I learned and talked to my doctor, who listened to my concerns and reassured me that I was correct. So, my son got his Gardasil. My daughter will get an HPV vaccination when it is recommended. I am not stupid. I am not ignoring anything. I also had to see a gyno-oncologist to have a hunk of cervix removed--one day coming in when they had a cancer support group meeting in the waiting room. I then had to wait to hear if I would be joining that group. I WILL do what I can to shield my children from that--it would be irresponsible and cruel to do otherwise.
Oh, and FYI, I got regular pap smears. Everything was fine. Until it wasn't. Why on earth would I wait until my child is INFECTED with HPV to start the cancer watch, if I can PREVENT HPV altogether? That makes no sense.
There is a troubling trend I see in this whole argument. There is a divide over those who continue to offer scientific evidence, showing fact & data to offer support. Then those who offer a "feeling" and a "belief," using the "feelings" and "beliefs" of others to support it. (Not everyone falls into one or the other camp, but there are a lot who do.) Faith is not science. Never has been, never will be. You can't offer, "Well, I believe..." as a factual argument. It doesn't hold water.
The article itself states where the info comes from. Right there, in black & white, two tiny paragraphs down. Here's what it says: "The documents come from the FDA’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) which is used by the FDA to monitor the safety of vaccines"
Oh, and you know what else concerns parents? Cancer.
Why do you assume your ability to understand research is so much better than mine, and that I have been "brainwashed" and am allowing my children to be "lab monkeys?"
I have not been brainwashed. I am intelligent. I pored through THOUSANDS of claims on Gardisil when trying to decide if my children would get it. I read as much as I could and came to the conclusion that many of the reports were made due to coincidental incidents. I don't think it's a case of lying when people make these claims. I think, aside from a very few cases that I do not have the knowledge to assess, there were desperately sad people trying to find A reason, ANY reason so they had someone or something to blame. This is scapegoating. I don't doubt the sincerity of those making the claims. But you must realize that not every claim is legitimate. I know that in VAERS data from a an almost 10 year period, of the MILLIONS of doses of Gardasil given, a few dozen deaths reported could be verified. Of those, there were no clear commonalities or trends or trails to follow to show the deaths were attributed to Gardasil. I took what I learned and talked to my doctor, who listened to my concerns and reassured me that I was correct. So, my son got his Gardasil. My daughter will get an HPV vaccination when it is recommended. I am not stupid. I am not ignoring anything. I also had to see a gyno-oncologist to have a hunk of cervix removed--one day coming in when they had a cancer support group meeting in the waiting room. I then had to wait to hear if I would be joining that group. I WILL do what I can to shield my children from that--it would be irresponsible and cruel to do otherwise.
Oh, and FYI, I got regular pap smears. Everything was fine. Until it wasn't. Why on earth would I wait until my child is INFECTED with HPV to start the cancer watch, if I can PREVENT HPV altogether? That makes no sense.
There is a troubling trend I see in this whole argument. There is a divide over those who continue to offer scientific evidence, showing fact & data to offer support. Then those who offer a "feeling" and a "belief," using the "feelings" and "beliefs" of others to support it. (Not everyone falls into one or the other camp, but there are a lot who do.) Faith is not science. Never has been, never will be. You can't offer, "Well, I believe..." as a factual argument. It doesn't hold water.
I am pro choice, so the science holds weight with me. If my daughters were young today would I vaccinate them today? No, because the majority of 12 year olds are not going to get cervical cancer at that young of an age. If they want it at 18+, they can make that decision themselves. I feel the same about Hep. B and newborn vaccinations. In all likelyhood, children won't get that either until they are adults. Let them choose then.
FYI, my last pap test was in 1984, so if younger, I probably would never get that HPV vax for myself or my daughters. I stopped going for GYN exams when I did not need to take the Pill. I have never gotten any mammograms either. Again, choice. If an adult woman decides to forego either, that should be HER choice for whatever reason, and nobody else's to dictate medical treatment.
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