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Wow. You guys are behaving like bullies in a schoolyard. I'm not sure how to respond so as not to offend anyone. Can't multi quote, 'cause that's too haaaaaard. If I quote one, but mention some other post, it's confusing...
Look, I don't care what you all do, personally. But what you CHOOSE to do has impact on others. Own up to it.
As far as VAERS goes, there are many reports that are legit. Sore arm. Headache. Fainting. If someone has an allergic reaction, yes. But every claim on VAERS? Nope. I don't think it's reliable. At all. I believe that there are a lot of people who believe what they report, but are searching for a scapegoat and not evaluating evidence, so much as reacting to grief.
I am taking no rights away from anyone. I don't have that power. I SUPPORT reasonable measures to protect the majority of children, and those at risk. I believe this is a reasonable measure. You don't. Got it. But I do. I don't believe it's an overreach. I don't believe it is coercive. I don't believe it is against anyone's rights. You may disagree with me, but ignoring pages of argument based in evidence and fact is just lazy. There are literally thousands of posts explaining every single point. If you refuse those facts, that evidence, fine. But to continue to put the burden on me or whomever to continually rehash is, again, lazy.
So, one doctor who is a literal monster, who behaved in the most inhumane way possible, he alone is proof of a corrupt system? Sorry. There are bad people. That doesn't mean everyone is. Look at the lengths he went to to make his profit. And he got caught. Hardly proof that vaccines are unsafe.
You will likely continue to impugn my character, my intelligence, my ideals, my sincerity. That's fine. But all of those remain intact, and you've not changed one thing in my mind. In fact, I've learned more on this thread to support what I've believed all along. Well played.
No. This is my first post on this thread. I have not read any of it.
You still don't understand what a free choice is do you? It does not involve coercion. The law is very coercive. The "choice" is to either inject or lose the right to a public education. It's sad that you believe that is a real free choice.
Injected Neurotoxins are not safe. I know because I've done my research. I understand the why of it.
The only way you can avoid "coercion" from a government would be to move to an uninhabited island in the middle of the ocean. To be direct, government is a synonym for "coercion". Its coercion that a majority or supermajority of your community supports to accomplish one or more public purposes. If you don't want to be part of the community than you better look for another community, or that island in the middle of the ocean.
You haven't shown any convincing research that would show that vaccines are "full of neurotoxins" that "are not safe". Nevertheless, I'm sure you will keep pretending that you have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
Did you not think people would struggle if you took their rights away, took their jobs, their public education? Did you not think they would be upset about that in a country that's suppose to protect minorities? Why act surprised? The minority feel differently than you do. Repeatedly stating vaccine propaganda isn't going to change it, they've heard it, looked into it and don't believe it. They could be right, you can't prove they aren't. Majority doesn't equate to being right. The majority in our country has been wrong before, so it's just a difference in what you believe to be true. Mandates won from a majority vote, so has slavery and many of our wars, doesn't make it right. Our health is in the hands of one of our major killers and we take our chances. We like to make that a choice, not a mandate. Given the proof that our medical professionals make a lot of mistakes and our governments can be lobbied into decision it's no wonder that some would question this. I'm anything but surprised.
I'm surprised after the Disneyland epidemic that anti-vaccination people were caught off-guard by Senator Pan's bill. Only a fool would have looked at that situation and not seen something like this coming. California is a very populated state--with a diminished vaccination rate-- and the potential for this type of outbreak was high. In retrospect, what happened was easy to foresee. Calamities often give rise to change in law and public policy.
I realize you are upset about this, but to suggest that our health "is in the hands of one our major killers" is truly uncalled for. It is an insult to the hundreds of people who have labored for years to develop safe and effective vaccines. It is an insult to thousands of dedicated medical professionals all over this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
Yep. People like you knew corn syrup and antibiotics shouldn't be pumped into our food long before the government addressed it. It took the organic movement spending money for them to listen. It was lobbyists who kept it in our food because of threats much like the pharmaceutical companies have done. Now that organic food makes those corps money they are produced by the millions. This is America, and the bottom line is cash.
Hence the doctor's motivation for purposely misdiagnosing his patients with cancer so he could make more money.
I don't want to get side-tracked, but I think the organic food movement is based largely on unproven hocus-pocus. Antibiotics were fed to cattle and livestock as "growth enhancers". This was done at the behest of the livestock industry and not because of suggestions from the FDA or the medical profession. Antibiotics are now being taken out of the diets of livestock. The primary concern is that this increases the number of antibiotic resistant bacteria--which is a public health issue.
I'd better quit now. You are rambling and it is not very flattering.
On some level, I am sorry for the consternation this law has caused. Yet, it was necessary and there is simply no excuse for tolerating the spread of VPD.
I think I might need to make use of that more often. I'm definitely done with even bothering to read the ultra long multi post, multi-poster quoted posts. That is for sure.
Great posts, btw, Poppy.
Yes, especially when it's just a bunch of opinion presented as fact. The only facts are a majority voted to mandate drugs and a minority finds it appalling. The rest as we've historically seen can change. Science is continual and medical advice changes with the wind, and incentives. Who hasn't been to the doctor and over heard the drug rep promising those. Next you get a sample of the drug they're promoting, side effects and all.
If you need something you take your chances, it's not like you aren't taking a risk. Mandates are government coercion. That's a fact. Do it or you lose part of your life, school, job, doesn't matter. A threat to vaccinate is all it is wrapped in propaganda to save the country. If only transparency would catch on....
Yes, especially when it's just a bunch of opinion presented as fact. The only facts are a majority voted to mandate drugs and a minority finds it appalling. The rest as we've historically seen can change. Science is continual and medical advice changes with the wind, and incentives. Who hasn't been to the doctor and over heard the drug rep promising those. Next you get a sample of the drug they're promoting, side effects and all.
If you need something you take your chances, it's not like you aren't taking a risk. Mandates are government coercion. That's a fact. Do it or you lose part of your life, school, job, doesn't matter. A threat to vaccinate is all it is wrapped in propaganda to save the country. If only transparency would catch on....
Balderdash, on the bold. There is plenty of documented fact throughout this thread. Anyone who doesn't at least acknowledge that Is disingenuous at best.
Science changes. Yes. But it also builds upon itself. Case in point? Took a friend to the pharmacy for a prescription pick up for penicillin. Maybe you haven't heard of this newfangled drug, though. You know, because medicine changes so quickly & all.
My doctor doesn't hand out samples, as a policy. I wouldn't stay with a practice that pushed them. I have a choice.
Informed consent cannot be made under the duress of coercion.That is not free consent. What is coercion? The treat of a significant loss such as public school attendance, or loss of a job. Plus a law cannot also be made ipso facto. Meaning it cannot apply retroactively, such as all children who already have religious objections, or staff already employed.
This would especially apply to the proposed Day Care Workers mandatory vaccinations law. All staff must be full vaccinated including yearly flu vaccinations. Ipso facto applying retroactively to staff already employed there. This is why most laws as this have a grandfathering clause. Sign a contract stating that they will comply? Depends on what the penalty for non-compliance is. Get all vaccinations or be kicked out of school, or be fired? That would be coercion kicking informed consent out the door. Employees get vaccinated or be fired? Invalid contact made under duress of loss of job.
Informed consent for medical treatment MUST be made without duress. If you kids are going to get kicked out of school, or you are going to lose your job, that is not freely entered into informed consent.
The only way you can avoid "coercion" from a government would be to move to an uninhabited island in the middle of the ocean. To be direct, government is a synonym for "coercion". Its coercion that a majority or supermajority of your community supports to accomplish one or more public purposes. If you don't want to be part of the community than you better look for another community, or that island in the middle of the ocean.
You haven't shown any convincing research that would show that vaccines are "full of neurotoxins" that "are not safe". Nevertheless, I'm sure you will keep pretending that you have.
I'm surprised after the Disneyland epidemic that anti-vaccination people were caught off-guard by Senator Pan's bill. Only a fool would have looked at that situation and not seen something like this coming. California is a very populated state--with a diminished vaccination rate-- and the potential for this type of outbreak was high. In retrospect, what happened was easy to foresee. Calamities often give rise to change in law and public policy. We catch a lot of things at Disneyland, but it was great timing for candidates running. The media hypes up a lot, pretty use to that. We've had bigger tragedies. A lot of us thought the media hype was overkill.
I realize you are upset about this, but (#1)to suggest that our health "is in the hands of one our major killers" is truly uncalled for. It is an insult to the hundreds of people who have labored for years to develop safe and effective vaccines. It is an insult to thousands of dedicated medical professionals all over this country.
(#2) I don't want to get side-tracked, but I think the organic food movement is based largely on unproven hocus-pocus. Antibiotics were fed to cattle and livestock as "growth enhancers". This was done at the behest of the livestock industry and not because of suggestions from the FDA or the medical profession. Antibiotics are now being taken out of the diets of livestock. The primary concern is that this increases the number of antibiotic resistant bacteria--which is a public health issue.
(#3)I'd better quit now. You are rambling and it is not very flattering.
On some level, I am sorry for the consternation this law has caused. (#4)Yet, it was necessary and there is simply no excuse for tolerating the spread of VPD.
#1 - 3rd largest killer in the United States - Yes, I guess it's unflattering to be a part of our 3rd largest problem. As I stated they are human but not above making mistakes and giving bad advice. I know that most of them work hard and mean well. Let's not turn this into a bashing fest. "It's a chilling reality – one often overlooked in annual mortality statistics: Preventable medical errors persist as the No. 3 killer in the U.S. – third only to heart disease and cancer – claiming the lives of some 400,000 people each year. At a Senate hearing Thursday, patient safety officials put their best ideas forward on how to solve the crisis, with IT often at the center of discussions" Deaths by medical mistakes hit records | Healthcare IT News
#2 - It's your right to think it's hocus pocus. Don't eat it if you disagree. It's ok to disagree, I'm not the one with the problem with people disagreeing. There is no evidence of antibiotic residue in milk being harmful by the way. But if that's one you do get on board with then again, it's your right to think what you want. They produce organic milk. I buy it because it tastes better. Results are in from FDA tests for antibiotics in milk - CBS News
Pesticides in Produce Fruits and Veggies are why I buy organic. I don't like munching down on pesticides. And I don't believe it's all hocus pocus.
#3 - Really? Well, I guess it's good that I'm not trying to come off as flattering to you. Everyones opinions differ and while you don't find it flattering, others have enjoyed what I say. Again, we all have our right to our opinion. Which is all it is.
#4 - I disagree on the necessity and I think you already get that. I understand where you are coming from, and try to read your posts openly. In the past I've agreed with a lot of what you say and I agree that vaccines are promising and should be encouraged as a choice, but I do not agree with mandating them. So, looks like we will just be disagreeing on that one.
Last edited by PoppySead; 09-01-2015 at 01:13 PM..
Informed consent cannot be made under the duress of coercion.That is not free consent. What is coercion? The treat of a significant loss such as public school attendance, or loss of a job. Plus a law cannot also be made ipso facto. Meaning it cannot apply retroactively, such as all children who already have religious objections, or staff already employed.
This would especially apply to the proposed Day Care Workers mandatory vaccinations law. All staff must be full vaccinated including yearly flu vaccinations. Ipso facto applying retroactively to staff already employed there. This is why most laws as this have a grandfathering clause. Sign a contract stating that they will comply? Depends on what the penalty for non-compliance is. Get all vaccinations or be kicked out of school, or be fired? That would be coercion kicking informed consent out the door. Employees get vaccinated or be fired? Invalid contact made under duress of loss of job.
Informed consent for medical treatment MUST be made without duress. If you kids are going to get kicked out of school, or you are going to lose your job, that is not freely entered into informed consent.
Please don't try legal speak. Please.
I had a job once that required me to be fingerprinted, thus putting me "in the system." To refuse would have meant I lost my job. I had another that conducted random drug tests. To refuse if chosen would gave meant I lost my job. I had another that required I submit to a thorough background check. To refuse would have meant I did not get the job. There are choices we make all the time that have consequences. Tough. That isn't coercion. If...then. Cause & effect. Personal responsibility.
Yes, especially when it's just a bunch of opinion presented as fact. The only facts are a majority voted to mandate drugs and a minority finds it appalling. The rest as we've historically seen can change. Science is continual and medical advice changes with the wind, and incentives. Who hasn't been to the doctor and over heard the drug rep promising those. Next you get a sample of the drug they're promoting, side effects and all.
If you need something you take your chances, it's not like you aren't taking a risk. Mandates are government coercion. That's a fact. Do it or you lose part of your life, school, job, doesn't matter. A threat to vaccinate is all it is wrapped in propaganda to save the country. If only transparency would catch on....
Agreed. It is opinion stated as fact. I thank Mark for reading and addressing the articles I shared about how scientific studies can and are subject to manipulation and bias. Everyone else on the pro mandate side just ignored that inconvenient truth. Also agreed that we can learn a lot from history.
Mandates are government coercion to the extreme. It's a threat and it's blackmail. That is something that people who supposedly live in a free country should be concerned about. For some reason they are not.
I had a job once that required me to be fingerprinted, thus putting me "in the system." To refuse would have meant I lost my job. I had another that conducted random drug tests. To refuse if chosen would gave meant I lost my job. I had another that required I submit to a thorough background check. To refuse would have meant I did not get the job. There are choices we make all the time that have consequences. Tough. That isn't coercion. If...then. Cause & effect. Personal responsibility.
But please don't do legalese.
Did those actions come with health side effects or potential death?
Informed consent cannot be made under the duress of coercion.That is not free consent. What is coercion? The treat of a significant loss such as public school attendance, or loss of a job. Plus a law cannot also be made ipso facto. Meaning it cannot apply retroactively, such as all children who already have religious objections, or staff already employed.
This would especially apply to the proposed Day Care Workers mandatory vaccinations law. All staff must be full vaccinated including yearly flu vaccinations. Ipso facto applying retroactively to staff already employed there. This is why most laws as this have a grandfathering clause. Sign a contract stating that they will comply? Depends on what the penalty for non-compliance is. Get all vaccinations or be kicked out of school, or be fired? That would be coercion kicking informed consent out the door. Employees get vaccinated or be fired? Invalid contact made under duress of loss of job.
Informed consent for medical treatment MUST be made without duress. If you kids are going to get kicked out of school, or you are going to lose your job, that is not freely entered into informed consent.
Totally agree.
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