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Neither do I, mainly because teacher performance is not the sole factor playing a role in student achievement. More factors, most of them of a complex sociological nature, would have to be addressed than simply what goes on, teaching-wise, to adequately address the breakdown in student performance. You can't address only one piece of the puzzle and expect overall solutions. But you won't see any improvement by failing to address any of it, either, and lower salaries do have the effect of pricing out talented would-be educators who can use their talents elsewhere for better compensation. As in many other settings, there is a "You get what you're willing to pay for" element at work, and it's pervasive in some settings more than others. Not everyone will be a martyr for their work, and those that will won't necessarily do it forever.
Can't speak to the union issue, as I teach in a private setting without union/collective bargaining presence.
I agree there are several issue, but just about every employee in in every job feels they are worth more then they are compensated for. So a certain degree of that needs to be taken into account.
In my opinion, there are several problems, social and administrative, wrong in our school systems.
If it was our schools are doing poorly, and our plan is to increase pay to teachers, reduce waste here, fix this here and initiate such and such program to involve parents. I would consider not funding for school.
But the "i don't get paid enough, I work harder then anyone else, despite our schools are failing" argument makes no sense.
As I stated earlier, either all current teachers are incompetent, and paying them more would not change a thing, or there is another problem.
Let us fix the problem, not throw money at it and hope it goes away.
Would it cost more to raise teacher wages to match engineers in industry, or to draft better educational materials?
What will you do to get the students to use those educational materials? It's funny, if I have my students read, I'm accused of teaching to the book. If students used them, better educational materials would be cheaper BUT FIRST you need someone capable of deciding what better is.
I'd have to say that I think paying teachers more would have more impact. People who feel valued for what they do tend to have more positive attitudes about what they do and are more willing to work harder. While better materials would be good, and cheaper, I don't see students using them any more than they use what they have now. The biggest problem with education in this country is that our kids are not motivated to learn. They're motivated to get check marks to get grades.
A move I think might have even more impact would be mastery learning but you might find you can't keep teachers without paying them more if we go to this model. Under mastery learning, the student can't move on until they get a B on the material. So the teacher has to prepare intervention materials for all students who don't get the B the first time while pushing those who did forward. Teachers will have kids at all different levels with this model. That's a lot of work but it does put the responsibility to pass on the student's shoulders. IMO, that is the number one correction our education system needs. We blame everyone except the learner for failure to learn when the learner is the one person who has to be on board if learning is to take place.
For me, raising my wages to what they were when I was an engineer would mean that I can put in more hours. The first thing I'd do is rehire my old housekeeper and have one less thing to worry about. I also wouldn't have to worry about finding weekend work to pay for Christmas and summer work to be able to save for my children's college educations. I'd love to do a series of lectures similar to the ones on Khan academy and flip teaching so that my students watch the lecture as homework and then come to class and work on the homework where they have support from peers and me but finding the time to do that is hard to do with a full time job and a family of my own to take care of. I'd also feel better about what I do. I can't help but believe that would have a positive impact. It wears on you when you feel disrespected by society all the time. Also, I could afford to take classes that I want to take and need to take to improve my performance but have to parse out because I just don't have $1200 a year for one class. I know the types of classes/seminars I need to take/attend but I have to pass because I don't have the money and it's not going to get easier when my kids are in college. I may end up leaving teaching just because I can't afford the continuing education credits I need to keep my certs.
I think, in the long run, paying teachers more would have more impact than better materials. Even if you buy the best materials today, they're outdated in 5 years and you'll be expected to use them for 15 years. Teachers are adaptable. Materials are not.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-06-2011 at 10:57 AM..
And considering our cost of living, our consistent ranking at the top of the education lists and how many of our teachers have advanced degrees, that is not much money at all.
I provided the source in post 24. It's wikipedia, but it cites the source of it's figures as "NJDoE 2009 Comparative Spending Guide".
It's quite reasonable, even considering the cost of living here. Keep in mind that teachers are only contracted 10 months of the year. If you do the math, that's about $69,116 for the entire year.
I provided the source in post 24. It's wikipedia, but it cites the source of it's figures as "NJDoE 2009 Comparative Spending Guide".
It's quite reasonable, even considering the cost of living here. Keep in mind that teachers are only contracted 10 months of the year. If you do the math, that's about $69,116 for the entire year.
There's one problem with that math. Most teachers can't work the two months they have off and make up that difference. Few companies are willing to pay $5760/month for summer help. Our pay is our pay for the entire year whether we work 10 or 12 months. THAT is what we have to live off of for the entire year. Our bills don't stop in the summer because our jobs do.
There's one problem with that math. Most teachers can't work the two months they have off and make up that difference. Few companies are willing to pay $5760/month for summer help. Our pay is our pay for the entire year whether we work 10 or 12 months. THAT is what we have to live off of for the entire year. Our bills don't stop in the summer because our jobs do.
I understand. That's the nature of the job. When determining fair pay, though, only the work portion of the year can be considered. You cannot expect an employer to pay you for months in which you weren't working even if you don't have other income during that time.
If you click on details on the link that lkb0714 provided, it clearly states that the salary is for 10 months. And thus your monthly income is $5760 when you are teaching. The fact that you need to stretch that money out because you don't work for two months is irrelevant.
I understand. That's the nature of the job. When determining fair pay, though, only the work portion of the year can be considered. You cannot expect an employer to pay you for months in which you weren't working even if you don't have other income during that time.
If you click on details on the link that lkb0714 provided, it clearly states that the salary is for 10 months. And thus your monthly income is $5760 when you are teaching. The fact that you need to stretch that money out because you don't work for two months is irrelevant.
No, my pay is my pay. When I was an engineer, no one every calculated my pay by adusting for only 10.5 months worked (I had 1.5 months off). This doesn't make pay fair. My pay is my pay. The standard of living the job affords me is the standard of living the job affords me...PERIOD. My standard of living doesn't go up because school is only in session 9.5 months out of the year and they're not offering me work during the summer to make up the difference. I'd take it if they were. Do you, seriously, think the 4 or 5 extra weeks I have off as a teacher justifies paying me half of what I can make as an engineer? Do you calculate everyone's pay by taking out their vacation and holiday time or do you just do this for teachers?
The only way your comparison is fair is if I'm turning down summer work. I'm not. My standard of living isn't determined by how many weeks they ask me to work per year unless I'm able to work another job during the summer that pays equivalent to what I'm paid for the 10 months I teach. If I can't make up the difference, it's moot to pro rate my pay because it changes nothing. Most people have vacation pay and holiday pay but we don't pro rate their wages because of it.
I think teachers are paid too little and are seriously undervalued.
I think entertainers (athletes and actors) are paid far too much and seriously overrated.
I think my job is more important then a teachers, I feel they should get paid less and I get paid more. What is to say your opinion is more valuable then my opinion? (this is just an example teachers don't get in a tizzy)
We can all have opinions but who decides what job is more important then another, which job is "worth" more. I prefer the free market to that. Not peoples opinions.
No, my pay is my pay. When I was an engineer, no one every calculated my pay by adusting for only 10.5 months worked (I had 1.5 months off). This doesn't make pay fair. My pay is my pay. The standard of living the job affords me is the standard of living the job affords me...PERIOD. My standard of living doesn't go up because school is only in session 9.5 months out of the year and they're not offering me work during the summer to make up the difference. I'd take it if they were. Do you, seriously, think the 4 or 5 extra weeks I have off as a teacher justifies paying me half of what I can make as an engineer? Do you calculate everyone's pay by taking out their vacation and holiday time or do you just do this for teachers?
The only way your comparison is fair is if I'm turning down summer work. I'm not. My standard of living isn't determined by how many weeks they ask me to work per year unless I'm able to work another job during the summer that pays equivalent to what I'm paid for the 10 months I teach. If I can't make up the difference, it's moot to pro rate my pay because it changes nothing. Most people have vacation pay and holiday pay but we don't pro rate their wages because of it.
You may need the money to keep your standard of living for 12 months, you only deserve 10 months worth of salary. Because you only work for 10 months.
Time & Productivity = Money
That's all that matters. Everything else is irrelevant to the employer.
If you wanted a job that paid for 12 months of work, you should get a job that has 12 months of work.
You may need the money to keep your standard of living for 12 months, you only deserve 10 months worth of salary. Because you only work for 10 months.
Time & Productivity = Money
That's all that matters. Everything else is irrelevant to the employer.
If you wanted a job that paid for 12 months of work, you should get a job that has 12 months of work.
Nope. I put in more hours as a teacher than I did as an engineer. As an engineer, I never brought home work in the evenings and if I worked weekends I was paid overtime. As a teacher, I bring work home with me all the time and I'm not paid a dime for weekend work. I've added up the hours and if you counted all of my time over 45 hours per week during the school year as comp time, and gave me as much vacation time as I had as an engineer, they'd still owe me 3 weeks comp time when you run out of year.
Yes, time & productivity = money and I'm putting in more time than I did as an engineer!! I just work the bulk of my hours during 9.5 months of the year...which, ironically, I did as an engineer (10.5 months there) too but no one told me I deserved less pay for that. They just considered me lucky to have the UAW holidays off and six weeks vacation.
BTW, I did make less than the average engineer but that's because I worked less than the average engineer. My job paid OT for time over 45 hours per week so we didn't work it much. I have friends who worked 50+ hours per week every week who had higher base salaries than I did but they were working more hours to earn it. As a teacher, I work about 55 hours a week (down quite a bit now that I'm in year 4) from mid August to the end of June (contrary to popular belief, we are not done when the kids are done). That means I've worked about 9 weeks of comp time by the time June rolls around.
Teachers do not just work the 8 hours they are at school. We have prep and grading to do as well. You know what's really funny. In countries where teachers don't take their work home with them, they're paid more and held in esteem....In Japan, I'd not only be paid more for teaching, I'd be respected for teaching and they'd give me 3 hours of work time per day to tutor my students and get my prep and grading done. Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact their students do better than ours?
Your thinking is off. The fact I work most of my hours from mid August to late June doesn't change the fact I work them.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-06-2011 at 11:53 AM..
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Teachers paid too much/little? What do you think?
