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Old 04-12-2018, 09:37 PM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,618,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I'll merge these two points. What you're looking at is the literal interpretation of these events. The allusion to the US being the equivalent of the New Rome come from different segments of society, but are metaphorical in nature.

It can allude to the fact that Rome was viewed as the center of Western Civilization for a considerable period of time, and it's fall (the Western one) brought in an age of cultural and social regression. It took over a 1000 years for Western Europe to regain a foothold.

It can also be viewed as a warning sign of what happens when one has two much power and how internal strife caused it's downfall.
Well if you are looking at it from the metaphorical point of view, than something like a "New Rome" would make sense.
However "Third Rome" has strictly theological connotation, as in..

“Two Romes have fallen. The third stands. And there will be no fourth. No one shall replace your Christian Tsardom!” said Russian monk Philotheus (Filofey) of Pskov in 1510 to their son Grand Duke Vasili III. At the time, the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire had just fallen to the Ottomans, radically altering the global geopolitical order at the time. Many holy Christian relics had been moved from Constantinople to Moscow to protect them from the Muslim invaders. The tsars of the Rurik dynasty took on this mantle of authority and expanded imperial Russia all of the way to the shores of California. The Russian Orthodox Church was intimately woven into the affairs of state and wielded extraordinary power."

https://www.westernjournal.com/onwar...-roman-empire/
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Europe
3,704 posts, read 575,675 times
Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
No it actually IS Russian Propaganda. I saw it with my own eyes watching Russian news during the Euromaidan days. Endless "news" and commentators telling Russian speakers in Ukraine that choosing Europe would lead to their doom and the toilet cleaning one was used again and again. The main point of their propaganda was to dissuade Ukrainians from the benefits of adopting trade agreements with Europe. It was borderline hysterical. It continues today, telling them that getting the new biometric passports to be able to visit the EU is going to be harmful to their health. No wonder Ukraine banned this junk from their airwaves.
Russian authorities are very afraid of Maidan and Euro-association. They use Goebbels' propaganda to keep people in fear. For them, Europe is refugees, homosexuals and impoverishment.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:50 PM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,618,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Solano View Post
Russian authorities are very afraid of Maidan and Euro-association. They use Goebbels' propaganda to keep people in fear. For them, Europe is refugees, homosexuals and impoverishment.
This is not just "propaganda" - plenty of people saw the EU in action, and what a sad fate was awaiting the Balts, Bulgarians and Poles, being used as a a source of a cheap labor in EU. ( By the way that was for the first time when I learned about it myself, sorta, watching this particular video, made not in Russia, but surprise-surprise in Eastern Ukraine.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0SAApHJjFs&t=85s

So predominantly industrial East had every right ( and justification) to be concerned for upcoming destruction, without any "Putin's propaganda."
That much is true.
However Putin's preoccupation with Ukrainian decision was understandable too - this was hitting his economic plans.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:53 PM
 
2,776 posts, read 1,010,852 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Milky, it has nothing to do with propaganda, we used the term "cleaning toilet" as a metaphor not in the literary sense, meaning menial jobs (feel free of not believing me but actually I never heard that term on the Russian TV/Videos I did watch) which is and will be the reality for many......for example, at the time of the joining of several Eastern European countries in the EU there was the fear of the "Polish plumber", it did not mean that everybody from Poland was going to be a plumber....I'm pretty sure that Ukraine, at best, will be a low cost production country for EU firms....even on the corruption front I would not hold my breath considering the level of corruption in core EU countries such as Italy, Greece and Spain.....Ukraine already closed down famous heavy air cargo manufacturer Antonov, there was a plan to build the next generation cargo planes in conjunction with Russia but the 2014 crisis blew things up and now the Russians are designing and building that plane on their own (or probably with the Chinese as partners)
I'm well aware of that. "Cleaning toilets" is an expression that is used to describe low paying jobs often attributed to those who have inadequate skills. That's why in my response to Scratt, I mentioned " blue collar" as an alternative less offensive remark.

Your second point addresses different issues altogether. Ukraine is obviously not going to become the dominant force in the EU, because it lacks the economic power to do so. That has little to do with your everyday worker. Those who have skills will move on top of the food chain. India is full of low skilled individuals, yet those who migrate to the West end up accomplishing a lot. Look at who the CEO's of Microsoft, Google or Pepsi are and you'll understand what I'm getting at.

The EU being a larger market than Russia is going to provide Ukranians with more opportunities. Some will end up as businessmen others as doctors, lawyers, engineers and yes there will be those who will be "cleaning toilets". It's how the world runs.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:05 PM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,618,313 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I'm well aware of that. "Cleaning toilets" is an expression that is used to describe low paying jobs often attributed to those who have inadequate skills. That's why in my response to Scratt, I mentioned " blue collar" as an alternative less offensive remark.

Your second point addresses different issues altogether. Ukraine is obviously not going to become the dominant force in the EU, because it lacks the economic power to do so. That has little to do with your everyday worker. Those who have skills will move on top of the food chain.
What skills exactly?
Those that had exceptional skills, didn't need any "European integration," they could just take off and and be hired by any European company, in the same manner as Russians find jobs in tech companies, without any "EU integration."
And if the skills are not "exceptional," why would European companies hire for those position Ukrainians instead of Germans or French nationals?

Quote:
India is full of low skilled individuals, yet those who migrate to the West end up accomplishing a lot. Look at who the CEO's of Microsoft, Google or Pepsi are and you'll understand what I'm getting at.
Indians don't immigrate to the "West" - they immigrate to US or Canada.
These are different labor markets, comparably to EU market.


Quote:
The EU being a larger market than Russia is going to provide Ukranians with more opportunities. Some will end up as businessmen others as doctors, lawyers, engineers and yes there will be those who will be "cleaning toilets". It's how the world runs.
Sure, since Europe obviously doesn't have enough of European doctors or lawyers, right?
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Europe
3,704 posts, read 575,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Sure, since Europe obviously doesn't have enough of European doctors or lawyers, right?
Locals much expensive. You know it very clear. There is no sense in pretending that you didnt know.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:14 PM
 
3,153 posts, read 2,070,170 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Indians don't immigrate to the "West" - they immigrate to US or Canada.
These are different labor markets, comparably to EU market.

I agree, highly skilled individuals (India, Russia or whatever) often bypass Europe altogether and go to the US.

Because of language barriers, labor mobility in Europe is not that great for a professional (and many national job markets are still de-facto very protected, France for example)...for menial jobs less so.

By the way, Juncker confirmed that EU membership for Ukraine could still be decades away...
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Europe
3,704 posts, read 575,675 times
Reputation: 788
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
This is not just "propaganda" - plenty of people saw the EU in action, and what a sad fate was awaiting the Balts, Bulgarians and Poles, being used as a a source of a cheap labor in EU. ( By the way that was for the first time when I learned about it myself, sorta, watching this particular video, made not in Russia, but surprise-surprise in Eastern Ukraine.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0SAApHJjFs&t=85s

So predominantly industrial East had every right ( and justification) to be concerned for upcoming destruction, without any "Putin's propaganda."
That much is true.
However Putin's preoccupation with Ukrainian decision was understandable too - this was hitting his economic plans.
I think it's better to live in a country like Bulgaria than in the country of the third russian world as the DPR.
Wherever Russia comes, fear, war and decline.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:22 PM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,618,313 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Solano View Post
Locals much expensive. You know it very clear. There is no sense in pretending that you didnt know.
You mean local specialists demand higher salaries?
Why wouldn't they?
It's THEIR country, and they want to live decent lives in their own countries, instead of seeing their living standards plunging because of some Balts or Ukrainians.
Sure, this might deliver more money for the employers, but as I've said it brings the standards of living overall for the locals DOWN.
This is one of the reasons why Great Britain wants out of EU now.
With other words, the influx of cheap labor from Eastern European countries ( Ukraine including) create more problems for European living standards.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:26 PM
 
15,029 posts, read 13,618,313 times
Reputation: 6916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alec Solano View Post
I think it's better to live in a country like Bulgaria than in the country of the third russian world as the DPR.
Wherever Russia comes, fear, war and decline.
This is YOUR opinion, and you are entitled to it.
But that does not mean that other people ( including those living in DPR) are not entitled to their own opinions, that differ from yours.
I for example don't want to live in Putin's Russia (it's unacceptable for me,) but Maxim on another hand has his own opinion on this matter, which I respect as well.
See? There is no ONE UNANIMOUS WAY to look at things in current situation.
It all depends.
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