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Old 08-10-2014, 11:03 AM
 
2,348 posts, read 3,914,789 times
Reputation: 2198

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Not much of a mass rally, even for propaganda purposes in which I am sure they could have gotten more people for that purpose, no one even knows what it is being filmed for.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,685,659 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
It was highly publicized everywhere that Kosovo would be setting a precedence, and I guess those claiming this was right.

You dismiss Kosovo because it counters your opinion regarding the Ukraine issue. Kosovo is a very inconvenient event for you because it is difficult for you to make an argument for Ukraine with this Kosovo thing hanging around your neck. All you can resort to is "we are not talking about Kosovo", as if that somehow mitigates anything.
In Kosovo there was an ethnic cleansing going on, and after the Rwanda disaster (poor response by the West), something had to be done. Soft measures were used at first by the EU, but they came to nothing, the massacre continued. Hard power was used, the NATO bombings, and the ethnic cleansing stopped. After these incidents it was judged to be impossible for Kosovo to stay under Yugoslavia and a Serbian government.

The situation in Donetsk and Luhansk doesn't have anything similar with Kosovo, and only russophiles and communists continue to be unable to understand this. Donetskian and Luhanskian isn't either a ethnic or cultural group. Even East Ukrainian isn't. The Kharkiv Oblast is solidly eastern Ukrainian, and they have the same culture and lifestyle as the rest of Ukraine. Ukrainian is an ethnicity, and it's the same people both in Kiev that in Donetsk.
Neither is there an ethnic cleansing going on in Luhansk and Donetsk. Only organised crime groups, terrorists and renegade gunmen who have seized power. It's like gunmen taking control in Southern Illiois would want to seceed from the US. Same culture, lifestyle and regional identity as Northern Illinois, and the neighbouring states.

Kosovo is not an inconvenient issue for me. It's only a stupid argument because the situation there was nothing similar to the current situation in Donetsk and Luhansk.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:39 AM
 
14,965 posts, read 13,545,410 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
In Kosovo there was an ethnic cleansing going on, and after the Rwanda disaster (poor response by the West), something had to be done. Soft measures were used at first by the EU, but they came to nothing, the massacre continued. Hard power was used, the NATO bombings, and the ethnic cleansing stopped. After these incidents it was judged to be impossible for Kosovo to stay under Yugoslavia and a Serbian government.

The situation in Donetsk and Luhansk doesn't have anything similar with Kosovo, and only russophiles and communists continue to be unable to understand this. Donetskian and Luhanskian isn't either a ethnic or cultural group. Even East Ukrainian isn't. The Kharkiv Oblast is solidly eastern Ukrainian, and they have the same culture and lifestyle as the rest of Ukraine. Ukrainian is an ethnicity, and it's the same people both in Kiev that in Donetsk.
Neither is there an ethnic cleansing going on in Luhansk and Donetsk. Only organised crime groups, terrorists and renegade gunmen who have seized power. It's like gunmen taking control in Southern Illiois would want to seceed from the US. Same culture, lifestyle and regional identity as Northern Illinois, and the neighbouring states.

Kosovo is not an inconvenient issue for me. It's only a stupid argument because the situation there was nothing similar to the current situation in Donetsk and Luhansk.
Ariete, sorry to say you don't understand much in Ukraine.
If everything you are saying is true, why was it so important for the new gov. in Kiev to forbid official status of Russian language? Why, in spite of all the pressing matters, this was their first move?
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,685,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Ariete, sorry to say you don't understand much in Ukraine.
If everything you are saying is true, why was it so important for the new gov. in Kiev to forbid official status of Russian language? Why, in spite of all the pressing matters, this was their first move?
The goddamn status of the Russian language was revoked within hours. Try to get it in your head already. Russian is the lingua franca in Ukraine, also in Kiev. Only in the far western Oblasts Ukrainian is the majority language. I understand the worries about the Ukrainian language, if the situation goes on like this, in 20 years there can be a big chunk of people who doesn't even speak Ukrainian. Undoubtly there already are.

The new government wants to promote the Ukrainian language as it is their right, just like Lapland is promoting the Sami languages. The unlucky language law was done being drunk from Maidan, and that was a mistake. The thing doesn't exist anymore.

You don't know anything about Ukraine either. You're just watching Russian propaganda because you're a patriot, and the western media depicts your loved country in the way you don't like. You have been saying that Ukraine is a "substate" of the Soviet Union, and Ukraine is a country that shouldn't even be allowed to exist, because it's a part of "mother Russia". And "those who want a 'Ukraine' should go back to Lemberg and beyond".

Last edited by Ariete; 08-10-2014 at 11:57 AM..
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:51 AM
 
2,348 posts, read 3,914,789 times
Reputation: 2198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
In Kosovo there was an ethnic cleansing going on, and after the Rwanda disaster (poor response by the West), something had to be done. Soft measures were used at first by the EU, but they came to nothing, the massacre continued. Hard power was used, the NATO bombings, and the ethnic cleansing stopped. After these incidents it was judged to be impossible for Kosovo to stay under Yugoslavia and a Serbian government.
Ethnic cleansing is the only prerequisite for an independent country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
The situation in Donetsk and Luhansk doesn't have anything similar with Kosovo, and only russophiles and communists continue to be unable to understand this. Donetskian and Luhanskian isn't either a ethnic or cultural group. Even East Ukrainian isn't. The Kharkiv Oblast is solidly eastern Ukrainian, and they have the same culture and lifestyle as the rest of Ukraine. Ukrainian is an ethnicity, and it's the same people both in Kiev that in Donetsk.
While Donetsk and Luhansk are not ethnic groups, many here have claimed they are Russians, this makes them a separate ethnic group than the Ukrainians? Or are they all Ukrainians there ethnically? Which one is it?

All of Ukraine does not have the same culture and lifestyle, I can tell you have never been there, lived there, and know little about the place. West Ukraine is a new addition post WW2, it and its people were never part of Ukraine until after WW2. The rest of Ukraine has been a mix of Ukrainians, Cossacks, Tatars, Russians, etc throughout the place for centuries. East Ukraine itself, the Donbass region, was gifted to the Ukrainian SSR to bring the Ukrainian SSR up to speed economic wise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Neither is there an ethnic cleansing going on in Luhansk and Donetsk. Only organised crime groups, terrorists and renegade gunmen who have seized power. It's like gunmen taking control in Southern Illiois would want to seceed from the US. Same culture, lifestyle and regional identity as Northern Illinois, and the neighbouring states.
Again, ethnic cleansing is the only prerequisite to independence? There was no ethnic cleansing when the US separated from England, most countries are independent due to reasons other than ethnic cleansing. Having your elected president overthrown by an opposing party, and having your taxes diverted to other areas and your industry destroyed are excellent reasons to declare independence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
Kosovo is not an inconvenient issue for me. It's only a stupid argument because the situation there was nothing similar to the current situation in Donetsk and Luhansk.
Not stupid at all; there are no such thing as "kosovars", they are Albanians who immigrated to the area during the Yugoslavian times, and decided they wanted to claim the area to themselves. Now look at the place.

Was Finland being ethnically cleansed with it declared its independence? How about all of the Soviet republics, was ethnic cleansing occurring when they declared independence? Ethnic cleansing is in no way a prerequisite for independence, however, economics and having a president you elected overthrow by a coup is a valid reason. Ukraine has always been fractured, Ukrainian borders are the creation of the USSR.
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Old 08-10-2014, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Sevastopol city, Russia.
2,308 posts, read 2,898,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
The goddamn status of the Russian language was revoked within hours. Try to get it in your head already. Russian is the lingua franca in Ukraine, also in Kiev. Only in the far western Oblasts Ukrainian is the majority language. I understand the worries about the Ukrainian language, if the situation goes on like this, in 20 years there can be a big chunk of people who doesn't even speak Ukrainian. Undoubtly there already are.

The new government wants to promote the Ukrainian language as it is their right, just like Lapland is promoting the Sami languages. The unlucky language law was done being drunk from Maidan, and that was a mistake. The thing doesn't exist anymore.

You don't know anything about Ukraine either. You're just watching Russian propaganda because you're a patriot, and the western media depicts your loved country in the way you don't like. You have been saying that Ukraine is a "substate" of the Soviet Union, and Ukraine is a country that shouldn't even be allowed to exist, because it's a part of "mother Russia".

Nonsense utter!
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Old 08-10-2014, 12:01 PM
 
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Re: the 'Southern Cauldron'

Thank you for posting it here for all to see.

Yes, it's very evident that the situation there is chaotic and extremely violent. Kind of makes me think of Stalingrad with all that close and brutal in-fighting to hold territory and positions. This has me asking how long then can Mr. Putin stand pro-Russian casualties before he entertains the calculus of ordering Russian troops to attack over the border at precise areas to mass, hold and then destroy piecemeal the Ukrainian army there.

A think tank estimates that there's a 35% chance of an invasion. In a way, we have to figure that each time a Ukrainian unit destroys a Russian one the country is that much more closer to being invaded. Add chaos to all this in relating to command with the army and militias all roving about in separate actions then I'd have to think the percentage would ratchet up. Yes, an atmospheric 'cauldron' is what it is by the border areas. Question is who will tame it first? And who really wants to tame it more??
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Old 08-10-2014, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,268 posts, read 18,685,659 times
Reputation: 11103
Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
Ethnic cleansing is the only prerequisite for an independent country?
Of course not. But there isn't one going on in Donetsk and Luhansk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
While Donetsk and Luhansk are not ethnic groups, many here have claimed they are Russians, this makes them a separate ethnic group than the Ukrainians? Or are they all Ukrainians there ethnically? Which one is it?
Some people surely feel that they are Russians. Those people exist in Finland as well. But do they have the right to separate the region they are living in from the country? No. The ethnic group Ukrainians are a majority in both Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
All of Ukraine does not have the same culture and lifestyle, I can tell you have never been there, lived there, and know little about the place. West Ukraine is a new addition post WW2, it and its people were never part of Ukraine until after WW2. The rest of Ukraine has been a mix of Ukrainians, Cossacks, Tatars, Russians, etc throughout the place for centuries. East Ukraine itself, the Donbass region, was gifted to the Ukrainian SSR to bring the Ukrainian SSR up to speed economic wise.
All of the US don't have the same culture and lifestyle neither. Has North Dakota the right to with arms secede from the US and join Canada by force? No. The borders are as they are today, and they were accepted also by Russia. I don't give a damn what the USSR or Czarist Russia did, it doesn't give any right to snatch areas from other countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
Not stupid at all; there are no such thing as "kosovars", they are Albanians who immigrated to the area during the Yugoslavian times, and decided they wanted to claim the area to themselves. Now look at the place.
Yes, Kosovo Albanians from Kosovo. There are also Montenegrin and Macedonian Albanians. They don't have the right to seceed and join Kosovo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k350 View Post
Was Finland being ethnically cleansed with it declared its independence? How about all of the Soviet republics, was ethnic cleansing occurring when they declared independence? Ethnic cleansing is in no way a prerequisite for independence, however, economics and having a president you elected overthrow by a coup is a valid reason. Ukraine has always been fractured, Ukrainian borders are the creation of the USSR.
Actually, it was. Not maybe ethnically, but politically. Read on the Finnish Civil War. I don't even want to comment once again on that "coup" thing. It has been beaten do death over and over again. Don't you have any other arguments? The process that led to the independence of Finland I've also discussed more than enough.

You're a broken record, and I have no interest in debating anymore with you.
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Old 08-10-2014, 12:28 PM
 
14,965 posts, read 13,545,410 times
Reputation: 6887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
The goddamn status of the Russian language was revoked within hours."
It was revoked, Ariete, because the Western overlords immediately pointed at fatal mistake to the "newbies" in Kiev. It was a faux pas big time in politics and they knew it. But that doesn't cancel out what the nationalists in new Kiev gov. were all about. This revocation didn't fool anyone in the Eastern part of Ukraine. But it could fool you.

Quote:
You don't know anything about Ukraine either. You're just watching Russian propaganda because you're a patriot, and the western media depicts your loved country in the way you don't like.
I don't trust the West, its honesty, integrity and intentions since the nineties - period, Ukraine or not.

Quote:
You have been saying that Ukraine is a "substate" of the Soviet Union,
No, actually - the part of the Russian Empire ( Soviet Union came later,) and it's a historic fact - Ukraine was a "substate" of the Russian Empire.

Quote:
and Ukraine is a country that shouldn't even be allowed to exist,
No, as long as "Ukraine" is a project of the West, directed at destruction of Russia.

Quote:
because it's a part of "mother Russia". And "those who want a 'Ukraine' should go back to Lemberg and beyond".
Again no, - those who didn't realize what a delicate balance Ukraine should have kept, because of all the cultural/ethnic differences between the East and West of the country, should go back to Lemberg. They've tried to create a monolithic state to push their own ideas, but Ukraine in its current borders has never been a monolithic state.
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Old 08-10-2014, 12:48 PM
 
5,635 posts, read 2,273,063 times
Reputation: 5864
Quote:
You're a broken record, and I have no interest in debating anymore with you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92gP2J0CUjc

Alright, get your toys and go play somewhere else.
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