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Hey, I did not write the above. While reading through comments though I could see a lot of anti-german sentiment being prevalent. It seems the more Germany insists on austerity, the more they are seen as the warmongers of the past who caused 60 million deaths (WWII).
Judging from the past 5 years this is certainly true. Germany made a big mistake by bailing out Greek creditors and defacto becoming the main creditor of Greece. In Greece today Germany is the scapegoat. Germany should have never bailed out Greece and let Greece deal with its creditors. The relationship between debtors and creditors is often a very toxic one.
Greece has a lower per capita GDP than West Virginia, one of America's poorest states. You can't have a worse economy like West Virginia and live like you're in The Netherlands or Germany. And that's what they tried to do.
Bad analogy, West Virginians collects social security and other federal government benefits as any other American from a wealthier state.
I don't see why Northern European countries are to blame for the indebtedness of Greece. Greece payed pensions, that were way to high and employed way to much workers in the public sector. To finance this they issue government bonds that were bought mainly by Northern European banks and investors. Through the high public spending in Greece the people were able to buy a lot of foreign made goods. The whole country has since decades a current account deficit. I don't see why other countries are responsible for the misery in Greece. Should the German government forbid German banks and investors to buy Greece bonds?
Maybe not indebtedness, but for economic problems.
Several reasons. The austerity demanded of southern European countries pushed more by northern European, sank many into a severe depression. Contractionary economic policies during an already existing recession make it much worse. Greek's debt to GDP ratio was high pre-crash (100%) but much of the increase was in recent years. The European central bank neither engaged in much monetary expansion nor lowered interest rates partly from influence from northern European countries. This against the interest of a country facing deflation in an economic slowdown. The current account balance for Greece got much worse after it adopted the Euro, while Germany's became hugely positive at the same time. Sure, Greece is partly to blame for its issues, but countries such as Spain weren't badly managed and are still having huge problems though at least not near bankruptcies.
I don't get the point of a lot of the posts here anyway. Ok, maybe it's mostly Greece's fault. Does it matter anymore? What matters more is whatever policies will dig Greece (and part of the rest of the Europe) out of the economic hole it's in.
How many people were killed by Nazi Germany is 100% irrelevant to this issue. I don't know why you keep talking about it.
Speaking of offspring of a snake will remain a snake, well, why not apply to the Greeks? The older generation spend recklessly, so will the new ones, so what's the point of saving Greece since it will bankrupt itself anyway?
The older generation of Germans created even more problems for the continent than the Greeks. They are now trying to take over by different(economic) means. Anyone who is not near-sided should be able to see that.
The Euro federalists encouraged Greece to join the Euro. If they did not qualify, they should've filtered them out in time, but they needed customers, hence why the heavy bribes(go read the 2 articles I posted above). I don't see how this is only Greece's fault/problem. Europe is a Union with no common constitution, no common armed forces, no common economic policy(different than monetary), pretty much a joke which was devised to compete with the US.
It's worse than that, even. I was in a couple of backwater towns in Greek Macedonia a few years ago and you should have seen how nice they were. Compare them to, say, Wheeling West Virginia and you can easily see that they maxed out the national credit card. Marble subway stations, bronze manhole covers ... I have nothing against nice things, but when you make less money than West Virginia, it's obvious you can't afford these things.
On another thread somebody said that the EU mandates that everything has to be to the same standard, but I don't completely buy that. Nobody was holding a gun to their head and forcing them to take out loans.
The comparision of American states by ppp adjusted GDP figures with other countries is utterly nonsense. According to those ridiculous statistics, states like West Virginia or Mississippi are even richer than the UK.
A significant part of the Greece economy was to make money in the retail industry by selling imported goods. But that's very similar in the UK and to a lesser extent in the U.S.
The economy in UK is somewhat comparable to the economy in Greece.
Maybe not indebtedness, but for economic problems.
Several reasons. The austerity demanded of southern European countries pushed more by northern European, sank many into a severe depression. Contractionary economic policies during an already existing recession make it much worse. Greek's debt to GDP ratio was high pre-crash (100%) but much of the increase was in recent years. The European central bank neither engaged in much monetary expansion nor lowered interest rates partly from influence from northern European countries. This against the interest of a country facing deflation in an economic slowdown. The current account balance for Greece got much worse after it adopted the Euro, while Germany's became hugely positive at the same time. Sure, Greece is partly to blame for its issues, but countries such as Spain weren't badly managed and are still having huge problems though at least not near bankruptcies.
I don't get the point of a lot of the posts here anyway. Ok, maybe it's mostly Greece's fault. Does it matter anymore? What matters more is whatever policies will dig Greece (and part of the rest of the Europe) out of the economic hole it's in.
The strong recession in those countries was necessary and desirable. The inflated GDP figures had to get down to a sustainable level. GDP was inflated by resaling imported goods (exact same thing like in the UK). The austerity has worked very well. Greece was able to achieve a balanced current account very quickly. The problem was that they almost don't introduce any reforms. The deflation in Greece was needed, the price level in Greece is still way too high. In my opinion Spain and Portugal are good examples that the austerity policies works. I am pretty sure that the situation in Greece would be much better today if they didn't vote for this insane government.
The Anglo-American approach is very dishonest in my opinion. Creeping impoverishment through more inflation.
The biggest mistake was to make Greece a member of the Eurozone.
Of course I wish that Greece get back on track. But that seems impossible when the government is formed by insane persons. Why the EU can't take over the Greek government for a limited period?
I was a big supporter of the Euro introduction. But meanwhile I think it was a really bad thing. The economies are way too diverse.
The comparision of American states by ppp adjusted GDP figures with other countries is utterly nonsense. According to those ridiculous statistics, states like West Virginia or Mississippi are even richer than the UK.
A significant part of the Greece economy was to make money in the retail industry by selling imported goods. But that's very similar in the UK and to a lesser extent in the U.S.
The economy in UK is somewhat comparable to the economy in Greece.
Is it??? I thought there was economic growth in the UK?
The strong recession in those countries was necessary and desirable. The inflated GDP figures had to get down to a sustainable level. GDP was inflated by resaling imported goods (exact same thing like in the UK). The austerity has worked very well. Greece was able to achieve a balanced current account very quickly. The problem was that they almost don't introduce any reforms. The deflation in Greece was needed, the price level in Greece is still way too high. In my opinion Spain and Portugal are good examples that the austerity policies works. I am pretty sure that the situation in Greece would be much better today if they didn't vote for this insane government.
The Anglo-American approach is very dishonest in my opinion. Creeping impoverishment through more inflation.
The biggest mistake was to make Greece a member of the Eurozone.
Of course I wish that Greece get back on track. But that seems impossible when the government is formed by insane persons. Why the EU can't take over the Greek government for a limited period?
I was a big supporter of the Euro introduction. But meanwhile I think it was a really bad thing. The economies are way too diverse.
Everybody has become an expert on Greece lately.
What country are you from? Perhaps the EU can take over your government too for a little while?
Bad analogy, West Virginians collects social security and other federal government benefits as any other American from a wealthier state.
No, good analogy because that makes things even worse then. If Greeks make less than West Virginia AND don't have a federal government helping them out, they have no business maxing out the national credit card to buy nice infrastructure for themselves.
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